At home, no capacity and no deputyship - access to money

[roundaboutthehillsareshining]

So my elderly relative is being discharged home with a care package. Fine, it's what she wants and it's the least restrictive option, so it's got to happen this way (even if it falls apart in a few months and she ends up back in hospital for 6 months). Anyway, there's nothing physically wrong and no dementia. Her team believe she has a new functional MH condition, but that can't be diagnosed in hospital and she won't engage with community care, so that's a dead end.

However, it's likely she's going to be found to lack capacity to manage her financial affairs. Her bank account set up is hopelessly complicated (at her choice) and can only be administered in branch, which she's not going to be able to access.

So if she's at home, and unable to access money, how does she pay for food etc until the deputyship comes through? The family can't afford to subsidise her, she isn't eligible for benefits as she's got money coming in, she just can't access it. So what happens? Anyone been in this situation before?

Eventually she's going into a care home. It's inevitable and noone in the family opposes it. But we have to jump through this step first because she can clearly articulate her wishes and her wishes (and the least restrictive option) is for her to return home with a care package.

The issue isn't about getting access to benefits that we may not even be able to apply for even as an appointee, because we can't access her banking details, so can't complete any means test or provide income/savings details. We are separately getting advice from SS and her advocate on how to apply for appointeeship, as she presents as very functional and capacitous in a short conversation, especially one she knows is with "authority".

My question is just about what happens if someone is unable to access money and is discharged home. This must have happened to other people?

I’ve told you.

You apply for a deputyship and wait, and in the meantime either apply to be an appointee or family help out and get reimbursed when the deputyship order is issued. That’s it - if she has capacity she can go down to the bank and get money out but you can’t force her to do that, if she doesn’t have capacity you wait. This is why it’s so important to get a lasting power of attorney in place long before this becomes an issue.

Attendance Allowance is not means tested. The form is lengthy and hard going, but you can fill in on her behalf
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/money-legal/benefits-entitlements/attendance-allowance/

I know this doesn't help with the immediate problem, but something to think about for the future

Can’t someone drive her to the bank in the morning when’s she is better and she tells them she needs a person put on her account to pay bills, buy food etc. if she’s not lucid enough she can be fast tracked by opg, took about 6 weeks in our case

Again, no.

OP will have no authority to add a joint signatory to the account. If her relative wishes to do so, she can, but as soon as she loses capacity the joint account is frozen. She has two options - appointee and deputyship, or a capacity assessment that states she has capacity and can make an LPA.

You need a solicitor op
LpA is cheaper and easier to get if she has capacity to say she appoints you
Can she express that she wants you or someone appointed as LPA ? Or not?

Deputyship if she lacks capacity is a whole different ball game and costlier and more drawn out

For now if you want to feed her you might need to pay from your own money and add up bills to maybe get reimbursement from her estate.. or at least compensated via any inheritance? .did she write a will?

How awful for you OP. Sooo difficult.

I guess you will have a few months before the gas and electricity are cut off by which time the deputyship may be through. Food is probably the key issue to focus on for now.

It feels almost impossible to talk to some elderly people, but in my experience once there is a concrete problem in front of them - you only have cuppa soup and bread to eat again today - and they can see that's true, they may accept they need support. Whether you can then get that for them in time is another issue.

The local vicar will have a discretionary vicars fund which can be used in emergencies . . .

Maybe adult social services intervene if you make a safeguarding referral once she is sent home with no access to food? How empty are her food cupboards? You may get a referral to a food bank for her at that point, if she will permit it . . .

Best of luck. It sounds very very difficult

It sounds like she expresses her views so maybe can tell solicitor she wants you appointed as LPA . But if there is doubt on her capacity then tricky.

If in a care home food will be provided maybe ss can agree to fund an assessment placement for 6 weeks? It all hinges on her capacity to decide not to eat not to buy food etc ? If she lacks capacity a best interests meeting can decide?

No, she won't appoint an LPoA, even if she had capacity to do so. The last time it was suggested (by a professional), the situation escalated to threats of physical violence by my relative to the professional. LPoA is absolutely not an option...

We did look at assessment placements, however the feeling from the medical team is there's nothing to be gained. Physically she is very well, mentally she has no diagnosis (and there isn't likely to be one) however dementia and neurological issues have been ruled out. There's no diagnosis currently that she needs treatment for.

We have told SS that she will be returning to a situation where she has currently no way of accessing money. They've not got back to us with any plan for that other than if she's assessed to lack capacity, a LPoA or deputyship will be needed (which we know). Noone has the funds to bankroll another household for months.

Will her carers get involved with SS if it becomes apparent there's no food in the house? We've already been told they can't facilitate or support her getting to the bank....

If you get her at a good time, she can explain in great detail how she's going to get the bus to the bank, what ID she will need to bring, how to fill out the form, etc. Get her at a bad time and she'll explain in great detail how her latest "business venture" is going to make millions. Get her when she's really bad and she'll explain in great detail how various famous millionaires are going to pay her....

The problem is, she has no executive functioning to actually get to the bank....

If she has capacity then that’s that - making unwise decisions isn’t a lack of capacity. All you can do is await the outcome of the capacity assessment and go from there. If she’s self neglecting she may end up in care but that’s a last resort

The capacity assessments have happened, she's already been found to lack capacity on personal care and we're waiting for SS to tell us the outcome (assuming they will) of the financial capacity assessment. The unofficial feedback we've had from her advocate is that she will be found to lack capacity in both areas.

A care placement isn't an option, SS have already ruled that out based on least restrictive options and her expressed wishes. She'll be going home with carers...

They won't know there isn't any food if they are just doing personal care. Assume from what you have said she won't ask for help?

She will be hungry I suspect unless you facilitate something for her. But if she doesn't say anything and you aren't able to do that then who would know?

You could flag it up when that happens to SS so not the bank access but that she's not feeding herself.

You may have said sorry but will she let you take her to the bank and she withdraws the money, can she understand that? But then if she can't get to the shop that's no use I suppose.

Then you apply for attendance allowance, make sure she’s claiming her state pension and do a deputyship application. Stop saying no and get on and do it.

But none of that is going to give her access to money in the next couple of weeks, before her discharge happens.

So I come back to my initial question, how have other people dealt with the situation where they're supporting from a distance, an elderly person who has been discharged home with no access to money?

There is no other option!!! You cannot do anything without a court order or LPA. You get the deputyship process moving as fast as possible and gather as much information as you can. You do the appointee application for her state pension and you explain to as many people as possible that you’re going through the deputyship process. You pay for what you can and get a refund (keep receipts as you’ll need to report to the OPG each year)

When her capacity is okay as you say she has good days. Get her to ring the bank and get them to send her a card.

Until Deputyship comes through you have to pay for things and keep the receipts. You can claim the money back once deputyship is granted. (Going through similar at the moment and have taken a lot of advice.) In the short term you could ask her if she'd get some extra cash out of the bank (you take her to the bank) and then you use it to get food delivered 'to save her the hassle' (I've had to use that phrase a lot about many things). But until you have deputyship the onus falls on the family to provide financial support.

Well we're stuffed then, aren't we. Noone in the family has enough extra to keep another household paid up for 6 months or so.... It's not just the food is it? It's utilities, insurance, council tax, phone bills, clothing, gardening, household maintenance, etc. Not everyone has a family. What happens if you don't?

So she paid all her bills in cash. I would say that is very unsual. That must have taken an awful lot of time for her to do all of that every month.

I recently retired from a bank. I would say every branch has it's elderly regulars who go in at least once a week to withdraw often scarily substantial amounts of cash for shopping etc and they pay any utility bills etc there or at the Post Office by cash or cheque.
It may be possible for the OP to be added as a 3rd party or get a carers card depending on the bank. It will, however, require taking the relative into a branch.

Sadly it's not possible, as she won't consent to that. The thing that maybe isn't clear in all this is that under no circumstances will this person consent to any "interference" in her management or administration of her financial affairs. Therefore the capacity question becomes central....

Or a Banking Hub may be a more local option.

Bugger.

How were bills paid before, if she lacks capacity then who agreed and arranged for her to go home and who arranged a care package? Who's organising transport home. Has a safeguarding referral been made to adult social services. If she's potentially going home to no food, no water, no heating, unpaid bills then it's an jnsafd discharge and social services and her advocate will need to speak to the court of protection.