At home, no capacity and no deputyship - access to money

[roundaboutthehillsareshining]

So my elderly relative is being discharged home with a care package. Fine, it's what she wants and it's the least restrictive option, so it's got to happen this way (even if it falls apart in a few months and she ends up back in hospital for 6 months). Anyway, there's nothing physically wrong and no dementia. Her team believe she has a new functional MH condition, but that can't be diagnosed in hospital and she won't engage with community care, so that's a dead end.

However, it's likely she's going to be found to lack capacity to manage her financial affairs. Her bank account set up is hopelessly complicated (at her choice) and can only be administered in branch, which she's not going to be able to access.

So if she's at home, and unable to access money, how does she pay for food etc until the deputyship comes through? The family can't afford to subsidise her, she isn't eligible for benefits as she's got money coming in, she just can't access it. So what happens? Anyone been in this situation before?

And what if the person doesn't have sufficient funds, and there are no family or friends prepared to take responsibility?

If you are in UK

1. SS do expect family to help. You need to be clear that you are not applying for COP or LPA. Tell SS they have to and they will, they can manage someone’s money quickly and provide weekly income and sort bills, they have a team who do this.
2. SS will apply for and get AA for her as if she needs carers she would likely meet the criteria. You don’t have to list specific diagnosis, symptoms are ok too. Appreciate she wouldn’t want to, but if assessed as lacking capacity in this area SS will do it. Anyone who has financial assessment as part of care package benefits are explored as standard. She may need to be paying for care longer term so this is usual.
3. dealing with all this is complex and challenging when it’s family, but you only have to take on what you can and not take on more even if the need is there, you don’t have to meet everyone’s needs yourself!
4. SS will not talk you through all this, get advice from experts like age Uk, MIND, Etc
5. make it clear that person will be at risk with no access to funds to buy food etc. put it in writing, make it clear you and family can’t help.

I re-read your original post. Who is the elderly relative and why do you think she cannot manage her own financial affairs if she did just before going to the hospital. No dementia, no physical need. What exactly has gone then and what is going on? There is no precise detail in the post. Just a claim that you know that this person cannot manage her financial affairs. These are too many claims without a single proof or documented opinion of health and social care. You don't have to take the person in your home if you don't want to. Seems she does not want contact with you either and her own opinion about mental health professionals and banking are really her own opinion and she has right to that. The whole thing is weird

Sorry that was in reply to the pp who stated that these were the only two options.

Yep the whole thing is weird. And obviously I'm not going to into all the details of the relationship on a public forum. However suffice to say this person is a close, but not immediate, family member.

It's not me who thinks she can't manage her affairs, it's her Mental Capacity Assessor (as defined in the MCA 2005) who is going to make that determination. The assessor has already found she does not have capacity to manage her health and wellbeing affairs, we are all waiting for the final reports on financial capacity, but expect it to be the same.

So if she's about to be found without finances capacity, maybe someone (LA?) can apply for benefits hitherto unclaimed and they can act as appointee and pay her bills?

I'm not sure she will. The AA form seems to specify care required for the last 6 months, which it hasn't. It asks about illnesses, disabilities and medication - we don't have anything to write in that as she's not on any medication and has no diagnosis. It asks for support in showering/bathing - she can't access her shower and SS know this, so that doesn't apply. She doesn't have a washing machine or means of doing laundry, so not sure how much the clothing questions will apply, she doesn't sleep in a bed as she can't access the bedrooms, and she doesn't do anything outside the home so none of those questions apply. I genuinely don't know how we'd fill out the form so that she'd be eligible....

Yes, SS are aware of all of this....

Am I missing something? Why can't she be driven/gey a taxi to her bank to withdraw a large chunk of cash to keep at home to pay for things as she has previously?

All of those things you listed are reasons for her to get AA OP!
There is lots of advice online about completing the form.
Why can’t she access the shower - presumably bc physically unable? Put that down!
Just describe her health problems, they don’t have to have a dx.

As I said SS will complete the form, they are used to it, and those who claim AA or help people claim it are used to answering the questions.
you don’t have to worry.
if she lacks capacity to manage finances then SS will help.
They can also provide food vouchers for carers, age UK etc (they obviously don’t advertise this fact else everyone would want free food! But for those individuals with no access to funds and no one to help, then they cant send someone home to no access to and no food, it’s safeguarding. They would be sent back by carers.

SS have said that they won't act as an appointee or apply on her behalf, that it's on us to apply for appointeeship/LPoA/Deputyship. Any attempt to ask questions about finances is rebuffed with "Deputy/LPoA needs to make arrangements".

They know damn well there's no deputy in place and LPoA isn't an option. But don't provide any other solutions.

Are you dealing with the LA social workers or those in the hospital?

LA social workers - the hospital workers referred the case on.

See if you can go back to the hospital ones for ‘advice’. They have seen everything before, and more, and have a vested interest in ensuring that she doesn’t return.

They sorted out near miracles for me - from what you are saying I think I was dealing with similar house issues.

Age UK have a money management service, very clued up on what they can and can’t do legally. May be worth you ringing your local office and discussing. They couldn’t help me but informed me so I could tell ss why their ideas weren’t feasible. 👀

We know the hospital SS worker very well, after having supported another member of the family. He's told us he is no longer able to help, as the case has gone to the discharge team. So unfortunately not an option

Ahh Ok, I might give them another go. They weren't great on older people with functional mental illness (as opposed to neurological deterioration) last time I called them about this, but maybe for concrete advice about law and money they will be better?

When my DM became too poorly to live on her own, she came to live with me and she just signed a form with the bank to say I could sign cheques on her behalf. This was 24 years ago though, but I assume it must still be possible. What have the bank advised?

Attendance Allowance isn't means-tested, so you don't need any financial details to apply, providing you get to be her appointee. Ask the Attendance Allowance people for advice.

What's the IMCAs advice?

That "ooh, this is a bit of a tricky one isn't it. We don't normally see situations like this in the elderly population"

That's about it....

So we're in a very difficult position here. If I apply for AA and appointeeship, the DWP speak with her to confirm the appointeeship arrangement, find her lucid and she understands that I applied on her behalf, our relationship is totally and irrevocably destroyed.

To reiterate, this person, if they had capacity, would refuse any external involvement in their financial or personal affairs. They have gone NC with family members for a far less intrusive involvement than we're discussing now.

I have to know absolutely before I press that nuclear button on trying to take any control, otherwise we're all scr*d, and it will be very difficult to access deputyship or further support in the future....

If you were applying for deputyship it does not matter a jot what she feels really (unless other relatives will side with her and oppose your appointment)

Well it kind of does. Even with deputyship, the family will be blown apart. But assuming it's granted, we can do the right thing, and even if she hates us, we'll have managed her money well and given her a good quality of life. But she will never forgive us for as long as she's lucid enough to understand the situation. As I said in a previous post, she's not my immediate family, she doesn't have to love me, I'm not bothered. But for those in her immediate family who do love her and are involved in the application process out of love, it's going to be absolutely awful...

What you've got to understand is that she's not away with the fairies. 80% of the time she's lucid to a greater or lesser extent. She can absolutely understand what she perceives as betrayal....

I have resigned myself almost to a rocky few months whilst ss try out all their crazy plans and they all fail, and / or my relative refuses their care then deteriorates some more consequently.
He’s going to end up in a home, at which point finances become much easier apparently because a deferred payment order can be set up.
(I know someone upthread said someone would need to sign such an agreement, but Age UK did not mention that issue?)