Alternatives to AstraZeneca vaccine for under 40s “will be considered” amid rise in blood clots Thread 3

[Whichjab]

New thread as the MRHA report is out today.

Note this is not an anti vaccination thread.

@whataballbag
Yes I agree. I am sure he might think differently if he was sitting here like me with headache 9 weeks on..... I wonder if he had AZ himself

The Spanish study on mixing vaccines, plus The Lancet, neither of these, if I recall correctly, used the word severe when referring to the side effects of mixing - more mild/moderate. It is only Sir John Bell who has used the term severe and been so negative about this mixing of vaccines as far as I know.

@penni00

The Spanish study on mixing vaccines, plus The Lancet, neither of these, if I recall correctly, used the word severe when referring to the side effects of mixing - more mild/moderate. It is only Sir John Bell who has used the term severe and been so negative about this mixing of vaccines as far as I know.

Yes, I watched that interview and was really surprised by his language and demeanour. What he said did not accord with what Professor Snape (fellow in charge of the Com-Cov mixing trials) suggested in the early results a few weeks back.

It felt like Bell was overstating the severity of reactions to encourage Canadians to keep using AZ. Too cynical? Maybe, but the PR from certain members of the Oxford/AZ team has been questionable.

Thanks @Rainbowsandstorms I just saw that too. Hopefully they will start getting (and giving) more clarity.

In the meantime I hope the Com-Cov results are out soon...

The Telegraph is saying that a single dose AZ only protects against the Indian variant by 33%.

'Data from Public Health England revealed that a single AstraZeneca dose offered 33 per cent protection from the highly infectious '

Sorry missed off 'strain' at the end of above post. The article reads as further below. I feel the pressure is on to have a second AZ dose as the article is giving over 80% protection against the Indian variant with two doses of AZ.

'Two people who attended the Nervtag meeting on Friday said the data showed that one dose offered 33 per cent protection against symptomatic infection from B. 1.617.2, (the Indian variant) and 51 per cent against B.1.1.7. (Kent variant)'

@Whitegrenache

Does everyone realise that every day the general population gets blood clots of idiopathic origins. also that the risk of getting blood clots is far higher when you take HRT or hormonal contraceptives?? Yet you are fearful of the covid vaccination? Do you know the most dangerous medications are paracetamol and aspirin? One is dangerous for the liver and the other one causing bleeding! Yet we take them without a second thought. I blame media for scaremongering

and you're alright jack, I suppose?

Hi, I was interested in this thread because I was concerned about AZ side effects - but because I am under 40 I actually just received Moderna anyway. I thought you might be interested to know that the mass vaccination centre I went to was offering walk-ins to anyone over 34 (or health care staff) on certain days and it was quite clear that only Moderna was on offer to all. It's Wimbledon AFC. I didn't note the walk-in times but maybe you could ring and find out more details if this could be an option. Thanks!

Thanks , that is extremely helpful thank you

Moderna made its vaccine patent free last year.

This is true, but as discussed in the attached article it is currently more of a gesture than something that will bring genuine benefit in the near future.

www.statnews.com/2021/05/06/waiver-of-patent-rights-on-covid-19-vaccines-in-near-term-may-be-more-symbolic-than-substantive/

Many developing countries need vaccines now, not in 2022.

@MrsFezziwig

Moderna made its vaccine patent free last year.

This is true, but as discussed in the attached article it is currently more of a gesture than something that will bring genuine benefit in the near future.

www.statnews.com/2021/05/06/waiver-of-patent-rights-on-covid-19-vaccines-in-near-term-may-be-more-symbolic-than-substantive/

Many developing countries need vaccines now, not in 2022.

Developing countries typically have a far younger median age (Niger for example has a median age of just 15!). AZ is clearly a poor option for them given the prevalence of clots in young people. The lack of efficacy against the South African variant is also a problem for African nations.

Re: efficacy, interesting figures just out in the Telegraph. Pfizer is apparently 88% effective against the Indian variant after two doses, AZ is 60%.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/22/vaccines-highly-effective-against-indian-coronavirus-variant/

A caveat to the above:

Other data has shown the AZ vaccine takes several weeks to reach maximum effectiveness after the second dose, suggesting its protective effect may not have been fully captured in the new data.

www.ft.com/content/e7147144-11ff-45bc-96f1-236380c9df5d

Yes, the Telegraph had added a new article, the earlier article was saying 80% or more efficacy against the Indian variant for both AZ and Pfizer with two doses. Thought that was too good to be true!!!
So, now AZ is just 60% against the Indian variant after two doses.
The new article has a chart that rather implies 33% efficacy against the Indian variant after one dose of EITHER vaccine. Not sure about this?!!! They have 50% efficacy against the Kent variant after a single dose of EITHER vaccine too.Not sure about this?!!!
I am sure that there must be a difference in the efficacy against the two variants after one dose between AstraZeneca and Pfizer. Too much of a coincidence for them to be the same percentages. I strongly suspect the 33% and the 50% are actually just AstraZeneca.

Az prob slightly higher than 60%, Below taken from Telegraph article:
'Although the AstraZeneca vaccine performed less impressively, scientists who conducted the study said data may have been skewed against it because the rollout of its second dose was weeks behind Pfizer’s. Earlier research also shows AstraZeneca takes longer to reach optimum effectiveness.'

@IndigoC
Sorry, saying what you were saying!

I thought it was weird they didn’t break down the single dose efficacy. I’m sure they have more case data on that than two doses, yet they weirdly only provided pooled data. I suspect it’s because AZ was lower than Pfizer, but who knows.

I thought immunity tended to peak pretty quickly after a second dose of any vaccine so I find the explanation for why AZ is lower after 2 doses questionable. But time will tell. I still believe AZ might offer more durable protection than the mRNA vaccines due to a stronger T cell response.

I think there is an angle here for providing the lowest figures for the single dose, to encourage the uptake of second doses.
I think there may also be an angle with the AZ possibly being higher protection wise as per the caveat of AZ taking longer to reach its max protection following second dose, to encourage the uptake of AZ. (I thought it was only a couple of weeks after the second dose for both AZ and Pfizer).
Well, regarding durable protection with AZ, I think the AZ will be more durable, because it makes such a performance of getting into your body - it won't get out that easily :) I know level of side effects don't reflect level of immunity, but if they did, I would be good for several centuries!

Very frustrated here as I'm finally allowed to book my vaccine (I'm 32) I'm very happy to have Pfizer or Moderna and have been following this thread with interest. Live in a decent sized city and it's giving me one option of a vaccination centre but I can't book it as there's no capacity for second vaccines and the next closest option is a town miles away, a 40 minute drive. I don't drive and it would be impossible on public transport with DS. I know I can keep checking but I wonder how many people will just stop looking after a while if it's too difficult, certainly people like me. I'm pro vax but very healthy, don't have the flu jab etc so think things will start to slow a bit now we're at this stage.

@IndigoC

That’s 47 new cases and 5 new deaths, I think. Only good news is they seem to be doing a better job of treating it.

40-49 year olds really were thrown to the wolves.

Sadly my DS told me last night that a colleague of his fiance died 3 weeks after the AZ vaccine from a blood clot on her brain (not confirmed as linked to the vaccine but she was otherwise young and fit) , makes it real when the figures are so low but you know one of them. Incidentally I have had AZ, both doses but I am 56 so not in the danger age.

I have had to stop discussing it in real life. Just can't taje the aggro.

That's awful @Jenasaurus - how old was she?

I don't think there is any age where it isn't a risk - it just seems highest among 40ish women. Although it's hard to track down detailed figures broken down by age group and bio sex...

@Jenasaurus that’s heartbreaking. I see so many people saying how small the risk is but each one of the people who have died are real people with loved ones and many of those who have died were healthy and would have had many more years ahead of them. I’m in my 30s and a mum of two young children and the idea of a second dose of AZ killing me and leaving them without me is just awful. Then I read the stats regarding the Indian variant and there are still so many pointers to the AZ giving lesser protection alongside the higher risks for someone of my age. I’m so unsure what to do.

I found a non-AZ centre by looking at options when selecting 'pregnant' on NHS booking app and sure enough all they're doing is Pfizer for first jabs today. I'm 41.

Well done @thelightishere did you grab an appointment?