Disengagement 710 - Ethnic cleansing!

[Squeezingwildoranges]

If the current Israeli government manage to expel all Palestinians from the land, should all Israelis be held culpable for not trying to stop it.

That's a difficult question to answer but I'll give it a go. If the entire Gazan population knew about the attack and supported the barbarism, then they would be complicit. The thing is, Hamas are fully aware that Israel has many spies and informants in Gaza so I would imagine they kept the whole plan quite quiet. In the immediate aftermath of the attack, without knowing any of the grizzly details or considering what the repercussions would be, I would imagine the general population at first celebrated in the knowledge that they had successfully hit back at Israel after years of Israel striking them. Once the grim stories of what happened came out I would also imagine a lot of them would have been a bit horrified and will have thought Hamas went too far. I also believe that if the Gazan population did know of the attack they would have objected if they could. We all know Hamas wouldn't allow that. Not so much because of humanitarian concerns but more about the repercussions. As I said this is all just speculation as we don't actually know whether the general population knew about it or could have done anything to stop it.

What I said was

"Do you feel the plan for 7th October 2023 was the fault of the Gazen population depending on what percentage of Gazens support Hamas or whether they actively protested again the massacre?
If the majority of Gazens support Hamas or haven't show much objection to what happened then surely all Gazens should be held responsible by your own logic."

My argument doesn't rely on the Gazen population as a whole having advanced knowledge of the attacks but on whether they supported what happened at the time and after. Surveys have shown a large percentage of the population did and do still.

You use a fair few if type arguments for something we already know. We know people lined the streets to celebrate 7th Oct at the time. That civilians were involved on a large scale in both the massacre and the hostage hiding. Thousands of Gazens were complicit in those things that is evidenced facts. We also know via surveys since 7th Oct that Hamas has a lot of support for this actions.

My question is very simple really. Going on the known facts not ifs or imagination what percentage of Gazens need to have support for Hamas doing horrible things for it to be OK to be prejudice against all Gazens or people born in Gaza?

That is what the question has been about Israelis on this thread.

Well that is exactly what I asked earlier. What percentage makes them complicit. But once again, we have no idea how many Gazans would have supported the attack as we don't know how many would have been privy to it before it happened so there is no way of knowing how many would have opposed it. Not so with this Disengagement 610 plan. It was been disclosed in detail to the whole world.

I put out a list of all Israeli Government Officials that have called for ethnic cleansing.

Russians absolutely are culpable for Putin. They voted him in for 25 years.

Palestinians allowed Hamas to flourish, most families had relative in Hamas, it would be impossible for Hamas to exist in such a crowded area without support of general population, so they are culpable.

As to Israelis - their next election takes place in October this year, let's see

Not sure if you are deliberately not understanding my point or just don't get it but in both situations the answer is always nothing short of 100% would be acceptable

As 100% would never happen your premise would be prejudice against people for their governments actions. The premise is totally immoral and racist.

You truly believe in group think of a nation? That everyone in a country is as guilty of their leaders actions as their leads so should be punished for those actions?

What about the people that didn't vote for those leaders, that were not born at the time etc are they all guilty too?

Are we talking about nation or individuals? If I read OPs question correctly it was "all Israelis"

Aww, you got us!

Ed Milliband is manboy disaster in whatever role he has. I'm not sure if he is deliberately pandering to the Muslim vote or is just a complete buffoon.

New tech, NHS drugs (1/4 are made in Israel), jobs for Palestinians are just some of the things that will suffer.
Not to mention more attacks on Jews.
Massive massive loss of trade.
Or losing the US as an ally.
It goes on.

Anybody who supports this really lacks critical thinking skills and is unable to see the bigger picture through their racism.

I read as all Israelis as well.

If this were to go ahead and unlike every other country in the world, Israeli citizens/Jews are deemed complicit in their government's actions, then the OP should defend Anti-semitism. Indeed applaud it.

After all, by suffering for their government's crimes, Jews are suffering excessively for 'Jewish' crimes.

LOL.

I voted to remain and we got Brexit. I am content with someone thinking the British are to blame for Brexit, because enough people supported it to make it our political reality. So the 'British voted for brexit', I have no issues with.

If a political party has a policy, gets voted in, and those policies materialise, then as a country we take collective responsibility for that IMO. The government represent the country, and by implication the people. That doesn't mean every single person has responsibility for the decisions, but as a country the people do.

So I don't think it's wrong to treat the country of Israel as responsible for the Israeli governments misdeeds, which is what we do for pretty much every country on earth.

For example, when we talk about Iran, people don't bend themselves in contortions to specify that they don't mean Iranians, they only mean the current government. I don't see why we should give Israel this latitude when we don't for other countries.

Speak for yourself. When I'm talking about the Iranian leadership I refer to them as the IRGC to distinguish them from ordinary Iranians.

And I refer to Hamas as Hamas, not as Palestinians.

Yes, but you've got to appreciate that generally worldwide, now and historically, people use the name of the government to mean the government. It's common and almost universal shorthand.

It's also disingenuous to pretend you don't do this, when I've seen first hand several years of posts from you, equating Palestinians with Hamad, or blaming them as a group of people, for the actions of Hamas. Your history doesn't lie.

I never say "Palestinians" when I mean Hamas, even though Hamas are Palestinian.

Sure. Just like you should be held accountable for child labour involved in making your phone, clothing etc every time you buy / use a phone or buy cheap clothes. And also: we should be accountable for (modern) slavery every time we buy fish, according to a Netflix documentary (Seaspiracy).

Then there's the recent Mo Gilligan docu on Netflix showing the terrible way employees are treated in the chicken industry. Best stop eating chicken. I mean, we should anyway.

If you've ever seen The Good Place (great show!) - it's like the writers point out: it's become too hard to be a good person. Best not to point fingers because none of us come out of that looking good.

You again Francine 🙄

You’re free to condemn Israel’s actions as strongly as you like, but accusing someone of defending genocide simply because they don’t share your interpretation of events isn’t an argument—it’s a personal attack.

The suffering of Palestinian civilians, including children, is not something to be dismissed or excused. At the same time, condemning Hamas, questioning particular claims, or discussing the wider conflict doesn’t automatically amount to defending the Israeli government or its actions.

Do you actually want to have a serious discussion? If so, it needs to be based on evidence and arguments rather than speculation about someone’s intelligence, mental state, or character.

No I haven't ever said "Palestinians" when I mean Hamas.

I'm very clear that Hamas are the terrorist group.

Loved that show

In February 2003, nearly 2 million people took to the streets of London to oppose the UK doing something which they felt was immoral. What is wrong with asking whether another society would take the same stance if they thought their government were doing something immorally wrong.

2 million was a tiny fraction of the population. That is not what your asking. You're asking whether a whole population is 'culpable' if their government does something you disagree with. stop moving the goal posts and dressing this up to sound reasonable. Collective punishment is illegal and immoral.