Disengagement 710 - Ethnic cleansing!

[Squeezingwildoranges]

If the current Israeli government manage to expel all Palestinians from the land, should all Israelis be held culpable for not trying to stop it.

Yes we can all see clearly you want to hold all Israelis 'culpable'. That has been obvious from the beginning. Your meanderings and obfuscations across the thread haven't added anything 'philosophical' or 'interesting' to your basic position.

Your obsessed with therr being a magic percentage yet won't give one yourself. I'm guessing it will be slightly above whatever percentage of Israelis do protest.

I bet if this thread was started about any other demographic @mnhq would pull it.

I don't only blame Palestinian/Hamas leaders for committing wrong, I believe it is in the interests of some of those bastards to prolong the conflict for their own political and financial gains.

As discussed, Palestinians have been collectively held culpable and punished for October 7th. Do I really have to dig out the statements such as there are no innocents in Gaza and the many more.

How is it a hypothetical because it hasn't happened yet. The only thing stopping it is finding a country which is willing to help the ethnic cleansing by accepting the Palestinians. "The Defense Ministry Directorate: Established following a framework originally proposed by the Trump administration, this specialized body within the Israeli Ministry of Defense was quietly given the mandate to negotiate with third-party nations (such as South Sudan) to accept displaced Palestinians in exchange for financial and diplomatic compensation". https://www.cnn.com/2025/08/13/middleeast/israel-in-talks-to-resettle-palestinians-from-gaza-in-south-sudan-ap-intl
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ben-gvir-unveils-voluntary-emigration-plan-to-remove-most-palestinians-from-gaza/

What am I being obvious about. The massive protest against the Iraq war didn't stop it happening but it showed that the people were against it. What will it tell us if there are no protests in a country which regularly protest against issues they don't like. There may be huge protests, which I sincerely hope. That is the hypothetical.

Absolutely.

So you think its wrong for Palestinians to be collectively blamed and punished for October 7 yes?

Then why are you asking if its appropriate to blame Israelis for hypothetically cleansing Palestinians? Surely, by your own argument, it would be wrong?

Can't you see your own double standards?

( And by the way, if Palestinians had truly been collectively punished for October 7, then there would have been no attempt to separate those responsible Hamas from those not responsible civilians. And there was effort to separate the two. Effort made by Israel. Not Hamas. Obviously, if Israel had been trying to kill both as many Hamas and as many civilians as possible there would habe been vastly more civilian casualties. That would truly have been a genocide. So that argument doesnt work either does it. )

The Oct 7th massacre was very different. Hamas did not make a public announcement of what it intended to do and explained how brutal it was going to be. We also know that opposition to Hamas by the general population wouldn't end well for the protestors. I don't doubt that there was a sense of celebration immediately after the attack for finally managing to hit back at the Israelis but I doubt that celebratory mood lasted long once details of the attack came out and a realisation of what the repercussions were going to be.

Israel is not hiding its intention. It has detailed it and explained it very carefully, to the entire world. Polls have been asked of the Israeli people to see what support there is for it and the results have shown an overwhelming majority support it. If people seriously oppose the plan they have ample time to organise a protest against it but that will only happen if enough people actively oppose the plan.

Israel did not try to kill the entire Gazan civilisation. They didn't need to. The intent was totally destroy Gaza and make life so unbearable that the population would agree to leave. It's called encouraging voluntary emigration and has been stated many times.

What a disgrace. @dairydebris said nothing unacceptable.

Agree about MNHQ & the demographic.

OP thought she would be safe to question whether all Israelis should be held culpable for something their government could do. Which to an extent she has been, apart from a few people challenging the ethics/inherent racism. Which many more would (rightly) object to if the question was whether we think all Palestinians should be held culpable for the murderous actions of their government.

I knew it would be deleted.

It is ok to be an open antisemite on here.

It is not ok to point out that someone is an antisemite, because its a personal attack.

I'll leave the thread now, it doesn't matter my accusation was deleted, its obvious for everyone to see.

Xx

Yeah, Im done with pretending there is a legitimate discussion to be had here.

The moderation on Saturday mornings is always dodgy. I've mentioned it to MNHQ but of course got the standard response, I'm sure you can imagine.

Actually meant to stop posting on Saturday mornings for this reason but forgot!

You can challenge it if you want @dairydebris - I normally ask for a different mod to take a second look if I think a post of mine has been unfairly deleted.

Fair enough.

I will follow your good example and leave this toxic and antisemitic thread.

But you wouldn't judge those who voted for the opposing side or every person of that population without specifically knowing their position, right?

No not right, If disengagement 710 became a reality I would absolutely judge anyone that stood passively by and let it happen and I would include the international community in that.

This is a ridiculous thread.
If it’s wrong to hold all Palestinians responsible for the things Hamas do then it is also wrong to hold all Israelis responsible for the actions of Netanyahu’s government.
Yes - Israel is a democracy. But my democratically elected government often acts in ways I disapprove of. There is no way it is morally acceptable to hold an entire nation accountable. Blame those in power.

Read the original question. I didn't say if it happens. I said if they didn't try to stop it.

I don't doubt that there was a sense of celebration immediately after the attack for finally managing to hit back at the Israelis

Yes, we‘ve seen that ‚sense of celebration‘ in the footage provided by Gazans themselves - people jeering, spitting and hitting bodies of Israelis, that were being paraded around.

but I doubt that celebratory mood lasted long once details of the attack came out and a realisation of what the repercussions were going to be

So the celebratory mood, seemingly not disturbed by seeing broken bodies of innocent people, was somewhat dampened by the realisation that there will be consequences? Lovely.

Oh give over! No one holds all Russians responsible for the actions of Putin.
Most ordinary people just want to keep their families safe. The response to October 7th is horrific but you should be blaming Hamas / the Iranian government and Netanyahu- not ordinary people on any side.

Its pure anti semitism

You wouldn’t make this stipulation for any other nationality .

Okay, let's look at it from another perspective. If during The Troubles the British government started to ethnically cleanse Northern Ireland of all Catholics and sent them to Sudan, do you think there would have been any protests in the UK about the policy.

I’m half Irish and half English, and I’m Catholic myself, so I’m not looking at this from an anti-British or anti-Irish perspective. Honestly, I don’t think there would necessarily have been widespread British opposition to it, particularly if it had been presented as a security measure during the Troubles.

There probably would have been protests from some groups, churches, politicians and activists, but I doubt the British public as a whole would have risen up against it. Public opinion during the Troubles was hardly uniformly sympathetic towards Catholics in Northern Ireland, and governments can generate a lot of public support for extreme policies when they frame a population as a security threat.

Ethnically cleansing over half a million people from their land? Okay, not sure I agree but let's run with it. That would constitute a crime against humanity and illegal under international law and there would be mass global opposition. So if there was no opposition to the policy by the British public and they passively let it happen, would that not make them culpable in the crime?

No one holds all Russians responsible for the actions of Putin.
Russia is heavily sanctioned by the international community, they are banned from competing in international sporting events, Eurovision and so on all of this has an impact on ordinary civilians.

As I've said if disengagement 710 goes ahead I would judge those that stand by passively. As citizens we have many tools we can use to force change in government policies if there's the will there. Look to the French. So pretending people have no power is disingenuous and I would like to think any democratic nation where people are free to get their voice heard they would use that voice for good and stand in the way of their government violating international law.

I know I negatively judged the thousands of people in Serbia who publicly mourned the death of Ratko Mladić the other week.

The Edmund Burke quote is apt here
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

not ordinary people on any side.
But Palestinians are being blamed that's the reason for disengagement 710