Should the international community sanction Israel over settler violence in West Bank?

[FloralDeerPattern]

The problem of Israeli terrorism is getting worse and worse. Just over the past few weeks amongst other things Israeli terrorists have killed multiple people, commited sexual assault, beaten and threatened to rape young Palestinian girls, continually attacked the residents and property of the only remaining fully Christian town in the West Bank, stolen 100s of sheep from the Bedouin community, beaten activists who are there to provide a protective presence to Palestinians, set fire to property.

Palestinians don't have the right to defend themselves from this violent, rapidly escalating Israeli terrorism. They can't arrest and detain the Israeli terrorists. They are sitting ducks with no means of protecting themselves from beatings and sexual violence. Is it time that the international community steps in and sanctions Israel until they can control their obvious terrorism problem? What else can be done to try and protect innocent people from this escalating Israeli violence?

If you can't answer my question it is very difficult for me to explain my point. If you feel the Israelis are now being inhumane in their treatment of the Palestinians, then the only way a politician can accept their behaviour and do nothing is because they have been bought. If, on the other hand, you agree with Israel's behaviour, we don't have anything to discuss on the subject. Do you agree with that?

What a shit article.

"... despite extensive efforts by the Israel Defense Forces to minimize civilian harm... "

That sentence is pure horse shit.

“have an informed opinion, rather than just accepting West Bank Palestinian propaganda which is obviously a two pronged attack with Gazan Palestinian propaganda.”

Holy crap! Have you read the AP recently?

Of course bias dictates how you perceive and interpret information. That is an established fact.

I wasn't actually accusing you of antisemitism btw. It was a general statement. As you thought I was, does that meaning that you were agreeing that you do have a bias?

I didn't say Deir Yassin didn't happen. Please read my post again.

At the time referred to Palestinians referred to themselves as Arabs.

You yourself have just referred to Jews when surely you should have called them Israelis by your logic. Or rather 'genocidal Israelis' according to you.

The Sergeants affair was a terrorist attack that took place in July 1947 during Jewish insurgency in Mandatory Palestine, in which the Zionist paramilitary organization Irgun abducted two British Army Intelligence Corps NCOs, Sergeant Clifford Martin and Sergeant Mervyn Paice, and threatened to hang them if the death sentences passed on three Irgun militants—Avshalom Haviv, Meir Nakar, and Yaakov Weiss—were carried out. The three had been captured by the British during the Acre Prison break, tried, and convicted on charges of illegal possession of arms, and with "intent to kill or cause other harm to a large number of people". When the three men were executed by hanging, the Irgun killed the two sergeants and hung their booby-trapped bodies in a eucalyptus grove near Netanya.

The crime was widely condemned in both Palestine and the United Kingdom. After news of the deaths became widely known, enraged British security forces rampaged in Tel Aviv, in which five Jews were killed and another 15 were wounded. Instances of anti-Jewish rioting and looting broke out in several British cities.

Kind of odd to me that apparently for decades afterwards Palestinian terrorism, including Oct 7th, has been excused as 'resistance' but something a Jewish group did 76 years ago is brought up as evidence of 'genocidal' intent.

Maybe look up the opinions of non-Israeli military experts who have actually been in Gaza, rather than believing propaganda.

How so?

Because I don't believe that Israelis Jews are genocidal maniacs?

I tend to form opinion on facts, evidence and logic, from BOTH sides of an argument which means evaluating information objectively, considering differing viewpoints, and drawing reasoned conclusions based on reliable evidence rather than personal bias.

Isn't that what you're supposed to do?

I understand why Netanyahu started a war against Hamas after 7/10/23 but I feel the Israeli response became disproportionate quite some time ago. I didn’t agree with Israel withholding humanitarian aid and I don’t agree with the way settler violence is being tolerated/encouraged.

However I don’t believe the only reason UK/EU politicians do nothing is because they have been bought. They are equally passive around many other conflicts and injustices in the world too. The diplomatic situation is complex and you seem to veer towards conspiracy theories you can’t evidence.

MN won’t ban someone just for having a different opinion.

I can imagine @OpenScroller has been reported half a dozen times by now - by some of the people who are outraged when I report posts - but still. I can’t see that they are breaking site guidelines.

Reason posts normally get deleted on this board: personal attacks or antisemitism.

Reason someone might get banned: the above but over and over again many times.

So, say something that may be perceived as antisemitic = banned. Say something that shows that you believe Palestinians should be ethnically cleansed from their own homeland and move to Jordan so that Israeli babies can live peacefully is ok. Gotcha.

@OpenScroller ,

I do believe that you have derailed this thread by trying to make it so broad and deep that it is impossible to have a sensible discussion without writing a thesis, which this just isn’t the place for.

Your link to why settler violence was misportrayed was at least two years old. I agree that, a few years ago, there were two sides to the story. It’s more recently that it has become more extreme and, fundamentally, a land grab.

Hoe are the settlers ‘not settlers’? Vanishingly few have any claim or historical links to the land (unless you are a literal biblical nutter and believe they were promised the land by g_d)? Most have come from other parts of the world to get cheap land and live like fundamentalists.

If Palestinians (call them Arabs if you prefer) have lived there for generations, how is it not their land? Most are subsistence farmers. What on earth would they do in Jordan?! Olive trees take decades to mature.

Whatever you think about Israel’s creation as a Jewish state (and I do support it, as a Jew, whilst knowing it is a messy compromise), the occupied territories are occupied. There is little legal justification for Israel keeping them (with the possible exception of the Golan Heights, which have important defensive value). Israel's has plenty of space in the 1967 borders without settling the occupied territories.

I do accept Israel may need defensive ‘buffer zones’ but these should never be settled (after all, if you put civilians there, they cease to be buffer zones) and Israel’s intent should be to return them as part of a proper long term settlement.

Israel is currently racist (look at Ben G’vir and Smotrich, they are not back bench MPs but sitting at the centre of government). They are also expansionist. It is hard to argue with people who term her a ‘rogue state’.

As Israel terms herself ‘The Jewish State’, this is bad for the diaspora and, ultimately, bad for Israel itself. Look at Jewish immigration and emigration. Losing high skill liberals and gaining low skill religious fundamentalists.

Whilst Israel does still contain elements of being a liberal democracy, Netanyahu is doing his best to erode them (changing constitution, limiting press access, allowing settler violence). It’s really important for Israelis, the international community and especially the diaspora to call this out.

I have thanks. Dozens of British doctors who have treated children with their arms and legs blown off.

Gaza has been razed to the ground.

You can see it with your own eyes on the hundreds of pictures and videos that have been on every news channel in the world.

Yes I’m going to a talk in September being given by Professor Nick Maynard (a surgeon in Oxford) who also works for Medical Aid for Palestinians (MAP). He has been in Gaza repeatedly since 2023 and has been interviewed on TV various times being very honest about what he saw there. He talks about the deliberate targeting of healthcare staff, abduction and torture of his colleagues, the dismantling of all infrastructure to make survival much more difficult, man made starvation etc… I’ve no doubt there would be people on here who want to call him a liar, but he was there and they weren’t so I will believe him.

@OpenScroller ,

Maybe look up the opinions of non-Israeli military experts who have actually been in Gaza, rather than believing propaganda.’

You are basically talking about Kemp and, especially, Spencer. They do make some good points and should not be dismissed. Equally, other military experts have countered their views. It is a mixed picture.

I do think that Israel have been a bit harshly criticised over the military campaign in Gaza (and I mean only the military campaign). I do think they can be excused for overreacting to 7/10. I mean, look at how the U.S and U.K reacted to 9/11!

Aside from dropping 2.000lbs bombs on occupied areas (the U.S never exceeded 500lbs in Iraq or Iran), which is inexcusable, they were put in an invidious position by Hamas, possibly the most merciless fighting organisation this century. Hamas had no compunction of putting civilians in the way of harm, in fact that was a part of their strategy. Had Biden still been in power, it would have worked. Hamas operated out of homes, hospitals and other civilian administrative centres, making them targets.

However, Israel’s control of water, food and fuel and the deliberate punishing of the populace by depriving them of the above are thought to constitute war crimes and are totally unacceptable.

And, back to those thread, their intention to settle and keep a part of Gaza is, again, unacceptable and against international law and norms. Their moving of the yellow cones and encroachment deeper and deeper into Gaza is becoming ethnic cleansing. And their refusal to pull back under a pre agreed peace plan with the U.S (just yesterday) reveals their intent.

So, yes, we do need to sanction Israel. They are not above international law as they have a long history of being our ally.

The site rules are very specific. Lots of things get said on this board that people find offensive. This cuts both ways which is why there are so few Jewish members of the community left who still post on this board.

It's not just antisemitism that is against site rules, also Islamophobia or general racism. The one we tend to see over and over again on CITME board however is antisemitism. Also people don't get banned for one antisemitic comment, they might get suspended for 24 hours after a long run of them. I have no idea how many posts someone has to get deleted before they get a permanent ban.

From the same youtube channel.

That's how I see the situation too.

But there are people on this board who don't even accept that the UK and Israel are allies and that means something, or that the UK and US are allies and that means something, diplomatically speaking.

The UK does already impose sanctions on some individuals and organisations involved in the Israeli settler movement in the West Bank. The Foreign Office is looking at imposing more due to recent events.

But "sanction Israel" - as in, the whole country?

@Twiglets1 ,

‘But "sanction Israel" - as in, the whole country?’

I, too, am instinctively against this but I am coming to think that it is the only way.

Did you see Ben G’vir openly advocating for ethnic cleansing the other day (can post a link if helpful)? And what were the consequences to him? He is a senior member of government, not a backbench MP.

And look at what is openly going on right now in Gaza and the West Bank. Israel agreed to pull back from Gaza if Hamas disarmed. Hamas have agreed to disarm and they have refused to pull back. I suspect this is an annexation and little to do with what Hamas does or doesn’t do.

Is what is going on in Israel now that different from what the U.N intervened to stop in former Yugoslavia?!

I guess I would ask you a counter question. What would Israel need to do for you to think they should be sanctioned?

I did see Ben Gvir advocating for ethnic cleaning yes, he is a disgrace as I said on here yesterday. He is an individual who should be sanctioned and I agree with people saying he is acting like a terrorist.

On the current situation in Gaza, my understanding is that Netanyahu agrees that Israeli forces will be redeployed or removed from Gaza once Hamas is completely disarmed. That doesn't seem completely unreasonable to me. I wouldn't want to trust Hamas one inch either. The problem of course is that neither side trusts the other side one inch.

I don't know what Israel would need to do for me to think the whole country should be sanctioned. Not trying to evade the question but it's a hard one. A significant proportion of the Israeli population aren't even in favour of the war, and we are of course political allies. Netanyahu and the extremists within his coalition are straining that relationship but I genuinely doubt they will still be in power after the October elections.

In the meantime, I think it's better to carry on sanctioning guilty individuals and businesses rather than punishing the whole country.

@Twiglets1 ,

‘I did see Ben Gvir advocating for ethnic cleaning yes, he is a disgrace as I said on here yesterday. He is an individual who should be sanctioned and I agree with people saying he is acting like a terrorist.’

But he isn’t ’an individual’!! He is Israel’s Minister for National Security. He is the equivalent of our defence minister. Smotrich (equally bad) is the equivalent of our chancellor.

Imagine Wes Streeting saying that people should go into Bradford and take out 30-40 Moslems every night! And Andy Burnham not only not firing him but not even reprimanding him. It is that bad and there are no excuses.

‘On the current situation in Gaza, my understanding is that Netanyahu agrees that Israeli forces will be redeployed or removed from Gaza once Hamas is completely disarmed. That doesn't seem completely unreasonable to me. I wouldn't want to trust Hamas one inch either. The problem of course is that neither side trusts the other side one inch.’

I am not an expert on the order this should happen in but, from what I have read, according to the agreement, both the disarmament and the withdrawal would be phased and overseen by the U.S. The U.S certainly feel that Israel should start withdrawing based on that agreement. Even more to the point, what is happening on the ground suggests annexation, not ever withdrawing.

‘the meantime, I think it's better to carry on sanctioning guilty individuals and businesses rather than punishing the whole country.’

Sanctions would start with a warning ‘if XYZ isn’t happening by a certain date, sanctions will automatically come into force’. Enough time could be left if Israel really do get a new government with a different attitude (not overly hopeful sadly).

Worked on the whole of South Africa. Depends how you view what is currently happening in the West Bank. Not quite bad enough yet? When will it be? When there are no Palestinians living there and they all have refugee status in Jordan?

I’m going out shortly but will give a considered reply when I have more time this afternoon.

Didn't report but do find it odd @JadeHare that if you reported, the post was not considered to have broken MN guidelines as:

Advising that Palestinians be moved from their land to Jordan is widely condemned by the United Nations, Arab governments, and human rights organizations as a proposal for forced displacement, which falls under the definition of ethnic cleansing. 1, 2, 3]
and
No, Mumsnet site guidelines do not allow posters to agree with or promote the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

(Apologies again for AI responses, must try harder)