He was very touchy-feely on date BUT I didn't object and kissed him back.

[NickyC1975]

I was on a 1st date with a very attractive, confident, cheeky man (we're both 50s) and he was very touchy with his moves eg. stroking my knees/legs, holding my hands, kissing my shoulder and lips and even my chest a couple times. I never kissed on a 1st date before but I let him do all this with very little complaint but part of me was just being polite as I did feel uncomfortable about it afterwards and so ended it next day. He sent a voice-clip apologizing and sounded very sincere, took full responsibility and understood and offered to sit on his hands if we meet again. He said he was unexpectantly overwhelmed at how attracted he was to me, esp my soft skin. I did enjoy kissing/hand holding etc but still I felt it was a lot.

I NEVER stopped him and in fact I touched him BACK and NEVER even flinched so it would be very easy for him to assume I was OK with it. But I did feel uncomfortable as I'm a slow-burn. He was a very nice guy though and said he respected my boundaries and would not go too far and was really looking forward to seeing me again and I was planning to see him again until I had a change of heart next day.

Am I being unreasonable for ending it and not just communicating better? He's not a mind reader but part of me feels he should have read my cues better even though I do realise it was confusing cos I never stopped him or even said NOI!

Yes, that's the thing - this guy had no means of going to bed with me that night anyway. I told him the last guy I was dating wanted sex after just 3 dates but I wasn't ready for that whereas this latest guy said he was happy to wait. We kissed a lot but he never tried to put his tongue in my mouth so I know he did have some self-control.

Your instinct about this man is telling you something OP. I think on the date you were taken by surprise, and the social conditioning you’ve had led you to go along with it and squash that slightly uncomfortable feeling down. Once away from him that inner voice that wasn’t really comfortable has made herself known more clearly- listen to her. Yes absolutely worth thinking about your own boundaries and trying to be in touch with that inner feeling more readily at the time- but it’s often hard to do- but please trust that feeling now. There is the world of difference between someone who is clearly relaxed and enjoying physical contact and warmly reciprocating, and someone who is just going along with it a little awkwardly- I think most men can sense this pretty well (even though I do agree actually learning to advocate more obviously for yourself is also hugely important!)

He was kissing your chest and getting all touchy feely in a bar?

Look up the fawn response. Also your mind is trying to tell you to not see again, listen to it.

As I said, the bar was dead, not even staff were there. We were tucked away in a booth and everyone else was in the main room next door. I know many other women have sex on first dates or get hot n heavy back in their cars but this was a first for me.

I’m not judging anyone for doing anything they are happen doing on a first date whether in their own car or in somewhere else private. But in a bar where a member of staff or the public could come through at any point? Unless it was that kind of bar/club but I think you would have mentioned it.
Your gut is telling you something given how uncomfortable you feel now - I would listen to your gut.
And the fact he didn’t use his tongue when kissing your chest is not an indication at all of self control.

Sounds like he could be using 'pick up artist' techniques. They use 'kino' (lots of touching) to intrude into personal space and break down barriers so they can progress their 'game' on their 'target'. It's about testing boundaries and getting the 'target' used to being touched by the PUA.

They also use 'kino' to test 'compliance' (how compliant you are with what they want you to do or what you will allow them to do). They use 'kino escalation' to increase the length and intimacy of touching to escalate the physicality of the relationship quickly - this is about pushing boundaries and getting to have sex as quickly as possible.

You might want to read this

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20191208060842/puamore.com/wiki/kino-escalation/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20180822062754/puamore.com/wiki/compliance-test/

The last part might interest you - where he talks about "a too much, too fast’ approach to Kino on dates (or more specifically, on first dates)" can lead to a woman feeling rushed and she will "flaking on a second date". That's what's happened to you - you've felt too rushed by his excessive touching and backed out of the second date.

And yes he knew he wasn't going to get sex that night - but he was working his game to get you ready for the next date to get you into bed as soon as possible.

Try reading part 5 of this;

https://psychcentral.com/blog/recovering-narcissist/2018/12/5-pick-up-artist-techniques-narcissists-sociopaths-and-psychopaths-players-use-to-unsettle-you#5-Kino-Escalation-Eye-Contact-Nice-Guys-and-the-Sexually-Liberated-Guy-Act

Don't know if the wayback link is working so let's try this one

archive.ph/gpIlO

Yeah, I wondered if they were canoodling like that in her local!

Aï di mi!

Are you sure your 12 year old hasn't got a hold of your MN account?

Huh? I meant he wasn't using his tongue to kiss at all period, not to peck my chest or my lips.

Why should she block him?

Sounds like a load of mumbo-jumbo, we were already sat beside each other and he already got me there on a date kissing, I don't see the need to use a pick-up technique, he already had me right where he wanted. All he had to do was not be so full-on.

Plenty guys touch or try to get you into bed asap - don't see how he's any different, he was just naturally very flirty (reminded me of Austin Powers)...let's not forget I did touch and kiss him back voluntarily. I told him I refused the last last guy who wanted sex after just 3 dates and he responded saying he was happy to wait - he never hid his desires and in fact owned them.

Not my local or his. We live 1hr apart so we met up at a bar off the motorway halfway between our homes.

I don't think he's expecting me to text him again, he's already deleted my number since I can't see his Whatsapp profile pic anymore so it looks like he's said his piece and moved on.

I think it's very worrying you say you let him behave in this way because you were being polite. I do think he will have picked up on the fact you were someone he could manipulate into compliance. He sounds like a chancer used to getting his own way.
I think you are right not to see him again and you need to work on your assertiveness.

It doesn’t matter though does it- next date he’d hold back or you’d be worried, overthinking or you’d go along with it while being uncomfortable afterwards - either way it wouldn’t be healthy, enjoyable or fun for either of you, you’re just not suited x

But she never need see him again and needn't feel bad in the slightest. He obviously is shite at reading body language and understanding and looking for enthusiastic consent.

He’s not a nice guy, and he did not respect your boundaries.

Who the fuck stokes the knee/ leg and kisses the chest of someone on a first date?

I wasn't sure how to vote and ended up voting YBU.

On the one hand, nobody owes anyone a 2nd date and you can stop dating or finish a relationship at any time and for any reason you want. He also sounds a handsy creep.

On the other hand, you seem to be asking not whether it was ok to call it a day or whether the behaviour was creepy but whether you should have communicated better and he should have realised that when you appeared keen by reciprocating, you were actually uncomfortable. That's why I voted YABU.

I would understand the politeness and desire to avoid awkwardness if you were younger. I was like that in my teens and early 20s. But I do think that by the time we get into our 50s, we should be able to assert our boundaries.

This gave me the ick, horrible limpet man kissing your chest on a first date.

Nope.

Use it as experience to try and speak up next time. You don’t need to be polite. Please yourself.

I’m not sure how he could have read your cues better when you were reciprocating so for that YABU and he stopped when you asked and respected that so that’s fair but if you aren’t feeling it then end it. One date in no one owes anything

True, but many girls are conditioned not to speak up. Not everyone is given the confidence to be assertive about their boundaries.