AIBU to wonder whether ADHD is normal and society is the issue

[LadyBeatriceBeaHiggins]

No offence intended

Discussing about Adhd with a friend who has Adhd and we wondered what if Adhd is naturally a part of being human and its the way society trys to make humans into machines that is the problem ?

so figured id open up our debate for fellow mumsnetters

There is no one view, but the estimates of prevalence going back decades suggest that there must be literally hundreds of millions of undiagnosed people. That is not "rates increasing exponentially", it is that we are just about starting to catch up and recognise the extent of the issue.

A good analogy is left-handedness. Has it increased? Probably not, but we don't beat children for using their left hand any more. Or homosexuality went through a period where it looked like it was increasing very fast and "everyone" was coming out, but actually it's just safer and more accepted these days (as it should be). Despite moral panics, a majority of people remain heterosexual and likely always will.

While there may have been people living in previous generations with ADHD who got by and managed, I reckon there were probably just as many or more who were less visible because they were shunned from or found it difficult to access mainstream society. You used to have borstals for children whose behaviour was not quashed by physical punishment in schools. Dunce caps and basically no effort made to understand why children might find it harder to learn than others. The terms "Educationally sub-normal" or "ineducable". It wasn't unusual to leave school without qualifications, in fact it was relatively recently that you could perfectly legally leave school before even taking a single exam. Of course I do also recognise that for a lot of people with ADHD who might struggle with academics, this could actually be preferable particularly at a time that qualifications weren't necessarily always needed for every job. But there will have also been people who left school with nothing and struggled to access much of "normal" society because of this.

Workhouses going back further, where conditions were terrible and disease ran rampant. Child labour (mines, factories) with high accident rates. Unmarried mothers were sent away and their children adopted. There have been criminal underworlds, drug/mental health problems, and fringes of society, always. Travelling circuses full of "freaks" (obviously not ADHD related, but there are similarities to what I'm saying - people born with physical differences, who can now live in society normally because people understand and/or they can have things corrected surgically or hormonally) The anti-authoritarian hippy movement of the 1960s, punks, anarchists, and other subcultures were probably all quite accepting of people with ADHD.

I think if you did a detailed study on this somehow you'd probably find that people with ADHD often struggled to access various aspects of "normal" society, and were less visible because of this. Now that we have more modern ideas that children must be protected from being forced into work, that education is worthwhile for all children, that notions about "deserving vs undeserving poor" are simplistic and don't tell the whole story, that addiction is a disease and mental health issues do not mean a person is evil, it makes a group of people who were often overlooked by the values of the past more visible and so it seems like they have increased, but I think they were always there, it's just that a lot of them were in prisons and slums and borstals and communes and squats and other non-standard ways of living. Or they died early.

Something else which might be interesting to look at this way is SIDS / cot death. Until the 1950s, infant mortality in general was so high that it didn't really register as a thing - babies were just fragile and could easily succumb to illness or suffocation. Only throughout the 50s and 60s when infant mortality had reduced enough from other causes did these unexplained deaths start to stand out and pose a question. There are obviously references to babies dying during sleep in earlier historical periods, so it has probably always existed, but if you look at official figures, you see rates climbing from the 60s through the 70s and 80s (England and Wales peak was 1988). It seems quite unlikely to me that the number of incidences was actually increasing during these decades, more so that the recognition of it as a phenomenon was getting better. Then safe sleep advice during the 80s and 90s started to bring numbers down successfully, which is why we have lower numbers (and lots of advice) today.

Pqrl0ur · Today 09:57
I don’t think anyone is referring to people who have severe symptoms like you and your daughter do, but simply the breadth of symptoms being diagnosed as adhd even when a person far less troubling symptoms and might be able to get by with management solutions..

I find it ironic that she’s against subtypes in autism when there are clear subtypes that everyone seems to agree on in adhd.

It's not obvious to me that ADHD existed to any large extent before the technological age. If it did, it would have manifested quite differently, at times when people's roles were clearly laid out for them. Most men were Agr. Lab.s and most women 'at home.' It's harder to be be ADHD when scrubbing dirty clothes all day on a Monday, etcetera.

I don't think it necessarily would be "harder to be ADHD" for people with genuine ADHD, although it would probably depend to some extent on how their ADHD presents and the subtype. ADHD is essentially an executive function disorder and housekeeping and child rearing both involve executive function in spades.

My own ADHD makes all household chores more or less impossible without medication. I would just have been called lazy back then I'm sure (as some people still see me today because I couldn't stay on the medication so lived in total squalor before I met my partner - he now does all the housework). If I had kids today they'd be taken off me as I couldn't cope with the demands at all. Thank god for choice and contraception.

I understand what you mean and believe what you say.
However, I’m aware how housework has changed in my lifetime. I know some argue that technology in the form of domestic appliances has generated more demands on women rather than making life easier.
A hundred years ago you’d have sent your kids out to play on the street with the eldest minding the baby and the instruction not to come back before tea time. If it was Monday you’d have settled down to a day washing clothes. Tuesday was drying and ironing. Let’s say Wednesday, you’d be reminded to scrub and polish your doorstep, because all your neighbours were doing theirs. I think Thursday was baking. Everyday your husband would walk through the door as your clock struck half past five and you’d put his meal in front of him. And so forth. Most of it, your neighbours would be doing at the same time. Don’t you think that required less executive function and more muscle power?

Having kids that would be out of your hair would be a big advantage for the part of the day they were out but you'd still have a myriad of child related tasks for when they were in the house. I guess if the eldest didn't have ADHD too that would be a solution but only once they were old enough!

Regarding the house work, I doubt the structure would make it any easier for me. There is still way too much executive function involved and I just wouldn't manage to keep up with what needed doing. Scrubbing feels like torture to me without meds. I can't tolerate more than a few seconds at a time and have to keep stopping for breaks to psych myself into continuing and can barely speak by the end of twenty minutes if I push myself, which I don't manage to very often. It wouldn't be done in 20 minutes either due to the dozens of microbreaks. Then there's all the tasks involved in getting started like gathering your cloths and preparing soap and heating water etc then putting everything away again once you're finished. I'd likely never get started beyond the first couple of times - I would just end up lying on the floor or the bed, overwhelmed as everything went to wrack and ruin around me. Again, unless you could get your kids to do it for you but they'd probably hate you for that and they might not even be available. They might have had school or have had to work themselves.

I don't manage to cook a full meal more than once or twice a year as it is with all the modern appliances and chopped veg etc. I relied on tinned fish and soup, both cold, before I met DP and ended up severely malnourished. There's no way I would manage to cook a daily meal before the invention of modern appliances etc. The only thing I could see as manageable would be scrambled eggs but I wouldn't manage to wash the pot afterwards and I can't think of any other meals I'd manage to cook and there would be no veg, ever! We'd eat a lot of bread and butter and nothing much else unless someone else stepped in. The kids would probably end up going to live with an aunt or something! My god, I'd have ruined countless lives by having ADHD before the invention of contraception!😂

Yes I think in other health areas there are concerns about the impact of insurance claims/private health care profits affecting what a society deems as a health need or the prevalence of it

An amusing one is the French 'heavy leg', for decades women in France suffered with 'heavy legs', all sorts of lotions and potions and health claims were based on the heavy leg. They are slowly removing this from various treatment claim options and what do you know? The prevalence of heavy leg has reduced!!

I still think you'd do better than you imagine!
Did you know that in the 19th century the average working family spent half to two thirds of their income on bread alone?
Anyway, your neighbours would have stepped in if you were in trouble. Your Mum was around the corner and your children would be helping out by the time they were four.
As a last resort , you could 😂always take to Gin!

There is certainly a cult of personality within the modern world and the enmeshment of some conditions, ND conditions being some of them, with the personality. So not 'I have', but 'I am'.

I think this is where the issue comes from that some ND is posited as a superpower. Because then 'I am' this thing and its a super thing.

Its not like that for any other condition.

i haven’t read the full thread, but check out the Social Model of Disability. It’s the approach many organisations working with disabled communities take, the concept that it’s society that is disabling, not the individual

That was where the discussion started and we're 336 replies in at this stage! 😁

AdHD was first recognised in 1798, lectured about in 1902 with stimulant medication successfully trialled in 1937, formally recognised and listed in 1968, renamed in 1980 and 1987, split in 1994 and reclassified in 2013. Its history long predates the world of tech.

I'm 100% sure I wouldn't cope at all but I appreciate you're trying to be kind! My mum and kids would have had to do almost all of it! I would be good at the drinking gin part though - maybe that's what mother's ruin referred to. All the disabled people who couldn't cope with life and turned to the bottle! Along with plenty of able bodied people who also couldn't cope!

That is fascinating about the amount spent on bread in the 19th century - but possibly because low paid workers often had housing provided by their employer in sectors like mining and agriculture?

Yes the thread is about this, more or less. I dont actually have a lot of time for that theory. I remember many years ago being highly criticised in a panel where I was supporting the plan for someone to manage their condition with medication (because thats what worked) and one of the panel members said 'well it sounds very medical model' with a sort of sneer

Well yes, thats because its a health/medical issue!!

It wasnt about ADHD but the same sort of theory and views can be applied.

There are all sorts of layers and factors invovled in a huge number of health conditions, the conditions that sit under the ND umbrella are no different. In both the parameters of it and the treatment of it and the prevalence of it. As much as I recall that panel years later, we cant neglect to understand that our culture affects what we accept or see as health issues too.

Its mainly because people ate bread. A lot. And some families ate little else. Imagine if 70% of your shopping bill was on bread. People paid for food, rent and thats pretty much it

I have researched a significant amount of my family history and its fascinating how people live, I love history. We are different to the past but not different.

Were they all really badly malnourished? How did they get enough protein? Although from googling this it sounds like this was during periods of subsistence/hardship and not necessarily all the time. The poor must have eaten a wide enough range of nutrients that they were strong enough to do the manual jobs that most of them did, surely? Even with a lot of bread to make up the calorie requirements.

Totally this. In our area you get offered group psychotherapy after NHS diagnosis and before medication. It helps you hate yourself less and gives you some coping strategies ( absolutely no diet suggestions I should add). It was very useful for MH and to some extent a little with managing overwhelm but absolutely does not make the ADHD go away or reduce severity.My children then want on to medication which has been literally life changing.It was staggering -years of self medication, depression, impulsivity, risky behaviour etc just stopped. My daughter says it has been the single most useful medication she has had and she has had a lot from ADS, anti psychotics, mood stabilisers etc the lot. She is now only on ADHD medication and won’t touch alcohol or weed . It helped her get in the right place to overcome her ED and it has stopped the self harm and suicidal idealisation. I decided not to go on it as I’m hugely under employed and near retirement. If ADHD hadn’t impacted my career and I was still doing what I’m qualified for and had years left in work I’d be taking medication. Truth be told I’m too scared to. My children don’t find it easy taking it and have days off but it’s 100% worth it for them. As I said previously I’m a typical almond all wooden toys mum. Like many parents I had to be spoken to quite sternly by professionals re meds as I really didn’t want them on any medication. As one lovely NHS psych said to me, if your kids had any other illness that required medication we wouldn’t be having this conversation as you wouldn’t kick back as a parent. She was right.

There is so much stigma, ignorance and misogyny out there as regards ADHD and it’s pretty appalling.

Mother to a ds with adhd and wife to a husband with adhd here.

I think modern society, and specifically sedentary desk work and classrooms, is an ill fit for those with adhd. The people with adhd would have been the ones who, centuries ago, were the fastest, strongest, quickest thinking and most capable of reacting to threat. The problem arises when people who are primed for action are forced to sit still and fit a new mould, or are taught in a one size fits all way.

Dh (56) is a prime example. Hated school, wasn't particularly disruptive or naughty, just nothing really 'stuck', so he assumed he was a bit 'thick'. He was told to try harder - by everyone - when the reality was that he was already trying far harder than anyone else. After all this criticism, he came to believe it was a 'him' problem, so he self medicated. Left school with nothing, no qualifications. Managed to make a life for himself after a stint in the RAF (which he loved), got some qualifications, got a desk job. Spent the next 25-years being miserable in that desk job. A year ago, I suggested he do something completely different and he applied for the Prison Service. He absolutely loves his job and wishes he'd done it decades earlier.

Ds (15) is bright and capable but underachieving academically - MTGs a couple of grades higher than his predicted. In sports and practical subjects he excels though. He's on medication to help with attention and focus going into Y11, but the reality is that once he's through the academic side of things, I'm encouraging him to do something active that will suit his skillset and enable him to drop the meds. He'll still need to continue to learn strategies to help address his executive function weaknesses but I'm determined not to force him down a route that just isn't right for him.

You can survive and do manual work and be malnourished. For the poor, this was their life. They died young but then they had kids young so even if they only made it to 40 or 50, they may have had grandchildren by then. We're obsessed with protein, the poor have never had much protein in terms of what modern society thinks is 'enough'.

It is interesting you say this of your ADHD affected husband when he was starting out on life:

Managed to make a life for himself after a stint in the RAF (which he loved), got some qualifications, got a desk job.

A pp poster was saying how the armed forces could really suit some people with ADHD.

I couldn't function when I was malnourished - I was even worse than now and I can't function now due to my ADHD and various other conditions. There were probably plenty who weren't ok and who couldn't do the work. There has always been some sort of support but before the state it came from the churches/parishes/monasteries or else individuals who couldn't function would have been supported/subsidised by family I suppose. And another group, as you say, would have ust about managed but would have died very young.

Ds is also erring towards becoming a PTI in the RAF, after 6th form and possibly university (sports studies). He'd need to be medication free for 12 months before being considered though. He's also considered PE teacher and policing.

People getting by often is not down to severity of symptoms but factors like wider support structures, affluence, education etc.

I have a decent enough job (though I have had to restart careers more than once in part due to ADHD and autism). I was diagnosed - but never treated - with 'hyperactivity' as a child. Have spent a lifetime being told I am not living up to my potential. By all the diagnostic metrics... I am on the extreme end. 8/9 inattentive, 9/9 hyperactive. 99th centile hyperactive and 97th centile impulsive on the Qb test. But I have a loving family, a very supportive husband, and have experience and educational qualifications.

I know other people who are less extreme in terms of symptoms who struggle more because they go not have a support system / have never had one to get them to positions where they can get qualifications/ job experience.

Armed forces, medicine, emergency services, media/ journalism, theatre/ music etc all tend to have a higher percentage of people with either ADHD or other neurodiverse diagnoses like autism, dyslexia or dyspraxia than the general population.

It often relates to being happier operating in tight deadlined scenarios, but also where there are clear structures for the gas like breaks/ food/ what to wear etc. that motivate any challenges around executive function.