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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

AIBU to ask what more I can do for traumatised children?

109 replies

CherryBerryBlossom · Today 10:08

What am I missing? What else can I do?
I’ve left an abusive marriage after 12 years. I suffered physical abuse, emotional abuse and my ex is being charged with coercive and controlling behavior, harassment and GBH (as well as some other things but let’s not be too outing!)
As a result I’ve been left with some very damaged children (aged 7 and 6) - I will never ever forgive myself for the damage that’s been done.
They replicate the behaviour they’ve seen and been victim to themselves. They speak to me in the most vile way with insults, swearing and disrespect, they tell me to shut up, they rampage my house, they kick, bite and punch me and one another. They call me liar and useless. They say ‘I don’t have to listen to you’
I have an allocated Social Worker, I have completed an 8 week DVAP course and the children are on the waiting list for DVAP, I’ve had a DVAP worker allocated this week. I’m in the process of paying for private play therapy for the children. I’ve paid for the Freedom Programme.
What else can I do? what else should I do? I can’t fail the children any longer.

OP posts:
Bakeittillyoumakeit · Today 11:39

CherryBerryBlossom · Today 11:25

School have been fantastic and I have been fully open with them about everything.
Its reassuring to read the regression is ‘normal’ they find being away from me very difficult so we just don’t do it- and three in a bed is our bedtime routine!

Yes OP, the best thing you can do for them right now is to help them feel safe and secure. Building resilience and independence come after that. Of course having an adult in charge and having boundaries and consequences also make children feel safe and secure so don't forget those. But they need to be things that can be implemented calmly - ie losing a small amount of NEXT WEEKS pocket money, or explaiing calmly that you will not be doing something until you are asked nicely.

Don't forget that it will be important to teach them how to handle and deal with things in an appropriate way so lots of reminders of what 'good behaviour' actually looks like, talking about how to handle difficult situations as they arise, how to handle conflict with other children etc. Reflecting back on things they do and discussing what could they do differently next time and why. It sounds like you're working hard to get this right OP, well done.

gettingbacktobeingmeagain · Today 11:40

ENOUGH with the victim blaming of poor @CherryBerryBlossom. She feels crap already, (I am also a victim of DV so I know the guilt only too well), so she does not need randoms online telling her that she is to blame...she was a victim, she has got out as soon as she felt able to, and that's the end of it. It is not as easy as "just walk out", the abuse makes you unable to think clearly, you wonder if it is "just you over-reacting" as I'm sure her XH told her many times.

She needs, and deserves our support...all of you who are piling in telling her that she's not done well enough...you clearly, luckily for you, have no idea how DV works and how it affects your ability to function. And yes I am cross on this poor woman's behalf...fuming actually.

@CherryBerryBlossom gentle days that work for you all sound good, ditto being all in bed together - your warmth (physical and emotional) will help the kids to regulate their emotions and to feel safer. Do just enough so that the kids get tired but not worn out, and small treats like an ice cream at the end of each day reinforce good behaviour, not as bribes but in recognition of a great day had by all. It sounds like you have enough professional intervention organised, so no need for any more of that just now...just build happier times for all of you, one day at a time and try not to get derailed when the kids behave badly, let them know in calm but firm terms that that isn't how you want to behave to each other now, and then try and get back on track. For a long time I ended each day with a "thank you for a lovely day" with my DC after we got out...and very gradually, they helped me to build each day to be lovely, because they realised that they wanted it to be like that too.

In all of this, don't forget yourself - the cliche is that you can't pour from an empty cup, but it's true, so try and find something that helps you - a quiet half hour with a book or your fave programme, or even a massage or getting your hair cut. Or therapy of your own. Once you manage to get yourself a bit calmer, the kids' emotions will feed from that - you regulate the emotional temperature for all three of you.

The very best to you my dear girl, you have done so well getting out, I am proud of you xxxxxx

Tippexy · Today 11:40

Some good advice in this thread but I would also add - for the love of god do not introduce a new DP, do not move one in, and do not have another baby. Prioritise your existing children. They need it.

Best of luck.

Longtimelurker1980 · Today 11:42

CherryBerryBlossom · Today 11:20

I typed out a long message to you and then read the poster who said I didn’t need to respond and I’m glad I didn’t respond fully. What I will say is - you, a stranger on the internet will never ever make me feel worse than I already do.
I also am hopeful my children are never taught by a teacher who is so narrow minded and lacking compassion.

I am neither of those things. I am a fierce defender of children, especially the vulnerable, which is why I feel so strongly about the after effects for those who had no choice in their upbringing. If your children were in my school they would get all the love, care and support they need, but there would be natural staffroom discussions around why on earth this was allowed to go on for so long when the effects on your children are so abundantly clear.

Schools have to deal with the awful consequences and, as a result, I confess that I struggle with sympathy for the person who allowed it to happen as well as the perpetrator. I am saying to you the things I cannot say to parents. And you are hearing things you know are true but no one will say in real life precisely because we have the children’s best interests at heart and therefore need to support the people who ultimately failed them as well.

CherryBerryBlossom · Today 11:44

Tippexy · Today 11:40

Some good advice in this thread but I would also add - for the love of god do not introduce a new DP, do not move one in, and do not have another baby. Prioritise your existing children. They need it.

Best of luck.

I will never have the inclination or confidence to meet anyone. So don’t worry about that.

OP posts:
Longtimelurker1980 · Today 11:47

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MultiBead · Today 11:47

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Did you say you're a teacher?

Bloody hell.

CherryBerryBlossom · Today 11:49

This reply has been deleted

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I’ll ask again - why am I at least 50% to blame? Implying I’m equally if not MORE to blame.
I reiterate I’d never ever want to be a parent of a child you teach - with your judgmental staff room discussions and your I’m better than you and this would never happen to me approach.

OP posts:
CherryBerryBlossom · Today 11:50

MultiBead · Today 11:47

Did you say you're a teacher?

Bloody hell.

Yeah the fact they’re a teacher is shocking isn’t it

OP posts:
ButterChurn · Today 11:50

MultiBead · Today 11:37

Don't be silly.

I'm being kind to the OP, not 'hammering' anything, but you appear to be inserting yourself here between us and making it into something it isn't.

Please move on to someone else's posts now.

Maybe you should take your own advice and move on from your ‘point’.

CherryBerryBlossom · Today 11:51

gettingbacktobeingmeagain · Today 11:40

ENOUGH with the victim blaming of poor @CherryBerryBlossom. She feels crap already, (I am also a victim of DV so I know the guilt only too well), so she does not need randoms online telling her that she is to blame...she was a victim, she has got out as soon as she felt able to, and that's the end of it. It is not as easy as "just walk out", the abuse makes you unable to think clearly, you wonder if it is "just you over-reacting" as I'm sure her XH told her many times.

She needs, and deserves our support...all of you who are piling in telling her that she's not done well enough...you clearly, luckily for you, have no idea how DV works and how it affects your ability to function. And yes I am cross on this poor woman's behalf...fuming actually.

@CherryBerryBlossom gentle days that work for you all sound good, ditto being all in bed together - your warmth (physical and emotional) will help the kids to regulate their emotions and to feel safer. Do just enough so that the kids get tired but not worn out, and small treats like an ice cream at the end of each day reinforce good behaviour, not as bribes but in recognition of a great day had by all. It sounds like you have enough professional intervention organised, so no need for any more of that just now...just build happier times for all of you, one day at a time and try not to get derailed when the kids behave badly, let them know in calm but firm terms that that isn't how you want to behave to each other now, and then try and get back on track. For a long time I ended each day with a "thank you for a lovely day" with my DC after we got out...and very gradually, they helped me to build each day to be lovely, because they realised that they wanted it to be like that too.

In all of this, don't forget yourself - the cliche is that you can't pour from an empty cup, but it's true, so try and find something that helps you - a quiet half hour with a book or your fave programme, or even a massage or getting your hair cut. Or therapy of your own. Once you manage to get yourself a bit calmer, the kids' emotions will feed from that - you regulate the emotional temperature for all three of you.

The very best to you my dear girl, you have done so well getting out, I am proud of you xxxxxx

Thank you - read and taken on board! I have private messaged you.

OP posts:
gettingbacktobeingmeagain · Today 11:53

You're very welcome my love, unless they've walked in our shoes, people have NO idea how DV works but that doesn't stop them getting on their high horse unfortunately. xxx

DrFoxtrot · Today 11:53

Imagine thinking a woman in an abusive relationship can ‘call it out immediately’ FGS.

if it helps to know OP, my mother was in an abusive relationship with my controlling father for the whole of my childhood. While it has adversely affected my life and shaped some of my relationships, I do not blame my mother as she was a victim, as was I.

TheJuryIsOut · Today 11:54

Longtimelurker1980 · Today 11:07

I’m going to be blunt - they are just emulating the behaviour you allowed them to see for so long. How can you expect anything else? It’s going to take a long long time for them to retrain their tiny brains and reset. They will need years of support and love and normal behaviour to counteract their awful beginnings. This is sadly very normal. They are the natural product of an abusive household.

I teach and unfortunately come across kids who have escaped domestic violence. They react so differently, as we all do to stimuli, but aggression and anger is typical. They are just doing what has been modelled for them their whole lives so it’s normal to hit and scream and punch and swear. It’s so sad to see and I do wonder why on earth parents stay so long and allow their children to be so damaged. The fallout is lifelong. And that’s without considering the latest tiny child who was killed by abusive parents that was in the news yesterday. Sorry op but i just don’t get it. Can you explain it to me?

I'll explain it to you. I didn't leave because I knew he would try to kill me (and possibly the kids) if I did, I didn't know how it would be possible to leave without putting us all in that danger. As it happened he did try to kill me when I left so I wasn't wrong. Hope that helps.

MultiBead · Today 11:55

ButterChurn · Today 11:50

Maybe you should take your own advice and move on from your ‘point’.

You're very clearly mixing me up with another poster.

You know the one who's being really nasty to the OP, yet you appear to be fine with that as you've not said a word to them about it?

Please take your agenda elsewhere as you're not helping the OP at all.

CherryBerryBlossom · Today 11:55

Thanks to everyone who has contributed either way. I appreciate it’s a difficult subject and we have differing views.
I have read all replies and will re read them and note down what’s been said and work my way through them. I know there’s no easy fix, I know I have played my part and I know I will do everything in my power to make sure the impact is lessened.

OP posts:
Longtimelurker1980 · Today 11:55

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MultiBead · Today 11:56

CherryBerryBlossom · Today 11:55

Thanks to everyone who has contributed either way. I appreciate it’s a difficult subject and we have differing views.
I have read all replies and will re read them and note down what’s been said and work my way through them. I know there’s no easy fix, I know I have played my part and I know I will do everything in my power to make sure the impact is lessened.

It'll be a long road but I have absolutely no doubt you'll all get there OP 💐

Longtimelurker1980 · Today 11:57

TheJuryIsOut · Today 11:54

I'll explain it to you. I didn't leave because I knew he would try to kill me (and possibly the kids) if I did, I didn't know how it would be possible to leave without putting us all in that danger. As it happened he did try to kill me when I left so I wasn't wrong. Hope that helps.

genuine question - why didn’t you go to the police?

Higgledypiggledy864 · Today 11:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

This is one of the most compassionless things I have ever read. What an awful thing to say to someone in the trenches of trying to get their life back and help their children process an undeniable trauma.
You may think you're just 'telling it how it is' but please know, you are not coming across well here.

TaleOfTwoHalves · Today 11:58

DrFoxtrot · Today 11:53

Imagine thinking a woman in an abusive relationship can ‘call it out immediately’ FGS.

if it helps to know OP, my mother was in an abusive relationship with my controlling father for the whole of my childhood. While it has adversely affected my life and shaped some of my relationships, I do not blame my mother as she was a victim, as was I.

It’s when the mum stays in victim mode forever - the eternal victim identity that the kids don’t seem to make progress and just repeat patterns.

and it is a 50 percent dynamic, certainly in the eyes of the child which is why they’re so angry and abusive themselves towards their mum.

I was that kid also. Kids trauma and victim hood has to take priority now over the mothers in order for them to successfully get over their trauma,
although they will never 100 percent get over it.

FIRM boundaries with those children needed and a mum that takes full responsibility and doesn’t dissolve into her own victim hood. She needs to understand her trauma now takes a back seat - step up, don’t parent on guilt. Do the right thing.

DaisyChain505 · Today 11:59

They’re angry and rightly so. They’ve had a pretty shitty time and they need to be able to speak to professionals and try and heal.

There’s nothing more you can do other than give them time and all the professional help you can afford/are offered.

Let them know their feelings are valid.

Higgledypiggledy864 · Today 12:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Tearing the OP down a peg is for sure the right way to make sure she is in the right place to support her children through this and help.them recover - what great thinking.

Excited101 · Today 12:03

Op was abused as well as the children, how is that difficult to understand. I’ve been very lucky to have only had positive relationships but abuse can happen to anyone. There’s enough information out there explaining about the psychological impact of it all and how awful it is for all involved.

no one is ignoring the fact that op ‘didn’t leave sooner’- the fact is, it’s totally irrelevant now- op needs support in order to be the best parent she can, having a go will only make her feel worse and make it more difficult for her to help her children. It’s hardly difficult to understand.

you’ve had some really good replies on here op, if you’re in a position to throw any money at it then do that, there are so many therapy options out there. It would be totally understandable if that’s not an option right now though- a recent split is hardly known to bring financial stability. Strong clear loving boundaries coupled with reliable and unconditional love with help but it will take years, realistically to see big changes I will guess. Good luck. X

BertieBotts · Today 12:03

This is so hard. Dwelling on what you should or should not have done in the past is not likely to help except in terms of reflecting on what to do differently in the future. Try not to get bogged down in shame with this - it can be paralysing, and that doesn't help anybody.

I found a lot of help in a book called Big Baffling Behaviours by Robyn Gobbel. My children are not traumatised, but my middle son had some very challenging behaviour when his ADHD was less well managed. The book explains polyvagal theory in the context of children's behaviour, which is extremely useful/practical (IME).

The only thing I disagree with in the book is that it completely rejects any kind of reward/punishment model being used and I disagree. While the understanding side is hugely important, I also think it's important to be really clear around which behaviours are acceptable vs unacceptable, even if the behaviours were a stress response, and often an external clear structure using reward and punishment is helpful with this. No punishment needs to be harsh or frightening - in fact it definitely shouldn't be, because that is counterproductive. Ideally any punishment should be minor, token, and temporary. But children who have been living in survival mode for a long time often need clear direction, and can benefit from the addition of extrinsic motivation because it helps them to orientate their own intrinsic motivation towards social rules rather than survival.

The other thing that I find is helpful about having a structure which uses set, predictable, consistent reward and minor punishment in relation to specific rules is that it helps avoid reward and punishment being used as tools in a power struggle. What we quite often naturally want to do when a child is misbehaving or we feel we need to regain control of a situation is that we try to get them to back down by verbally wielding a bigger "stick" - making more threats, or reminding them of the rewards they stand to lose, as a kind of threat. When children either cannot meet the adult expectation in that moment, or they have gone into a threat response, then what you will find is that wielding "threats" makes the child's behaviour escalate, in turn the adult often escalates and the situation can spiral ending in either the child backing down and complying, but the adult feels guilty because they were more harsh than intended, or the adult abandoning the attempt and the child escapes the demand. This is called the coercive cycle, because it is highly likely to be repeated - the child repeats the escalation because it sometimes works for them to escape, the adult repeats the escalation because it sometimes works to gain compliance. But it will increase defiant/oppositional behaviour overall, which is not what you want as a bigger picture, and it's also very chaotic and frightening.

What is usually better is to have the clear rules with small token reward/penalties for infractions and most rules (e.g. no shouting, no violence) should apply to everyone including the adults. Children often appreciate BTW if adults also do something like take time out if they have a moment of frustration and break a rule. Something like a bedtime can obviously be different for adults and children. But this way when something happens and the adult wants to remind the child of the rules, it's not a battle between you and them, you're just reminding them of the consequences and then it's up to them to choose. It also models that if you make a mistake, or if someone is unhappy with something you did, it doesn't necessarily mean that your entire worth as a human and/or relationship with this person is now in jeopardy. It was just a mistake and we can accept the consequences of the mistake or take on the new information and move on with life, perhaps doing something to put it right etc. Often children who have experienced or witnessed abuse can be afraid of owning up to mistakes or hearing any kind of criticism/feedback, because this was dangerous in the abusive situation, but safe relationships are not like that and it is important to learn how to deal with mistakes and criticism in a safe environment.

If you're finding repeatedly that a child is ending up with the consequence rather than following the rule, then it can help to explore whether the expectation is currently too high and either needs breaking down into smaller steps from where they are now to where you want them to be, or whether the child needs more support e.g. with an underlying skill, or some kind of environmental support e.g. a task prompt list, or whether the expectation is right for them e.g. maybe they are not tired when you want them to sleep. But having the system of rules and consequences be almost separate to your relationship is really important (IME) because that way it can be you and your child against the situation they need to master, rather than you vs them.

I quite like the books by Cathy Glass / Casey Watson, fostering memoirs. Take them with a massive pinch of salt, obviously, because it's clear they are at the very least fictionalised if not fully invented despite being marketed as true life stories. I'm sure the actual progression of behaviour/trauma processing is neatened up substantially, and there are a lot of convenient/unrealistic happy endings. But what I like about them is that they set out a very clear and simple illustration of how day to day life can look when you're trying to establish structure, boundaries and safety for a child who has experienced not much of any of it and who has challenging behaviour to manage day to day, and they both have this kind of thing where the caregiver uses reward and punishment without it being a power struggle or an adult vs kid and who "wins" kind of thing, so they are helpful to see how that kind of thing can be implemented.