AIBU to think upper middle class professionals downplay how much they game education?

[MyCyanAnt]

I can’t be the only one who has noticed this. I went to genuinely average comprehensive schools and had parents who just dgaf like most in UK. I went to medical school where it seemed like this upbringing put you in a small minority, now an ultra high earner from own business but still do part time work as a GP. DC are 12 and 14.

Whenever the topic of education comes up with other doctors/professionals they will say stuff like it’s the child not the school who determines the outcome, we’re not pushing DC, we’re letting DC pick their school etc

However when it comes down to it none of them ever put their money where their mouth is. It won’t always be Eton but it will almost always be either a private, grammar or high performing comp in expensive catchment area instead of a genuinely average comp.

It’s a similar story with paying for tutors and other parents DC being interested in prestigious but completely unrelated careers e.g. Doctor or investment banking who have obviously been guided by parents.

I do the same but I feel like I’m an outlier in that I don’t lie about it, I’m obviously paying/gaming things so DC are much more likely to get a top job. I don’t see what’s wrong with admitting it yet it’s such a sensitive subject with some.

Perhaps it’s location specific but the state schools I know have wraparound care 7am-6pm with external and internal clubs. Plenty of parents work and need it.

There are genuinely lots of reasons people choose independent education for their children. I'm not saying results mean nothing, but people have many different for choosing the school they do.

This is such a good comment! Not only hellbent, but they are gate-keeping big time! When my dn was preparing for entry, there still was a requirement for 'experience', like shadowing a doctor or suchlike. Was very difficult to find a placement, actually impossible. But guess what - all the doctors' children got their placements no problem!

It is really location dependent. Round us it was 8am - 5pm in state (with major drawback that there were fewer places than parents wanting them, plus every school varied within that and you didn't know which you'd get due to the shortage of spaces) and 7.30am to 6pm in private with guaranteed spaces for all who wanted.

Plus I'm a teacher so by the time I'd have known for sure there was a problem, I'd be beyond the resignation date for September quite likely!

I think you've created a really interesting discussion OP.

I'm not sure I'd call it gaming the system, but an element of not recognising the privilege people have - and the knowledge that comes from that of how to push and develop young people.

My parents were working class and didn't know how to give me good educational advice. They'd never done A levels or uni. They'd never had an office or graduate job, so didn't understand some of the politics that went with that, either.

They'd never had to ask me to study (a classic case of a bright kid doing well anywhere, or me just having some internal drive?), so didn't think to push my brother. I did well, he less so. Could I have done even better? Probably. I worked throughout my GCSE exams and my A level years.

They never thought or asked about what uni would lead to - other than I would 'definitely' get a graduate job after. So I got into debt with an English degree that I still haven't paid off. When I ended up working in a bookshop for the first year after uni (to break into publishing, which did work), they were appalled I couldn't afford to buy a house in London yet. They just hadn't dreamt you could do a degree and not walk into a 30k job.

When I got the job in publishing, I started with three other grads. One was upper class I would say, and her parents had taught her to, on day 1, ask how to get promoted and what she had to do. I thought you just had to work hard. When I finally got around to asking how to get promoted, they'd changed the system and you could only do so when there was a vacancy, not on merit. My friend with more knowledgeable parents was already far ahead of me.

Now obvs, most of the above is down to my own decisions, but the point is that my parents lacked the ability really to offer any advice on education or work. If you have people who push you in the right direction, it's that little bit easier.

Dreadful!! Thankfully this is not the case with my relative, nor having met them at a birthday celebration any of their medic friends. Believe it or not there are Doctors who actally do care for the wellbeing of their patients, many who go above & beyond what is necessary.

Interested in what makes you an ultra high earner OP alongside being a GP. Obviously you don't have to answer this!

Very good and comforting to hear, I would like to hope this is the case, against all hope.

Our middle DS got a place to study at Oxford ( not Oxford Brookes-most people asked us this whenever we spoke about him) he went to the local state schools, with his older brother and younger sister
He came out with a 1st class in his masters, now studying at a different uni for his Phd
A few of my work colleagues at the time couldn't quite believe he managed to secure his place as all their children went through private school, one in particular couldn't hide her resentment ( one of the reasons i left) and kept quizzing me over the details, A level results etc
He was determined to study at Oxford, Chemistry is his passion and he studied soo hard for all the exams, he has a natural flair for it too, thats what happens in life sometimes, you find your passion and go for it, we are not a well off family by any means
He didnt have tutors, he had great support with his A levels ( 2nd year derailed cause of covid) but he did it
I understand what you are asking OP

@Brokeandoldwell done him!

You keep talking about "most parents" sending their children to the nearest school and not being particularly ambitious for them.
I don't know anyone like that. Most of my friends send their children to state schools, but there is a huge attempt to get them into the best ones, whether that is an entrance exam, music exam or regular church attendance.

I recognise my privilege coming from a medical family although did not follow this career path myself. Paid for both DC to go to private school and both went to RG universities which I must admit is what I expected. We liked the arts side to their education. Both have postgrad degrees but finding it very difficult to start a career. I think it’s probably my fault … should have urged them to go for law or medicine etc instead of fannying around with the arts . So it’s not that simple … tbh I have many doctor friends and I think it is a particular thing that medics children go into that profession. Let’s face it …it’s v hard work but had status very good pay and fantastic pension. Hence any new immigrant family knows it’s worth it .So yes you can support your children and have ambitions but I think it’s more nuanced than post suggests

You just mean some people aren’t honest about the privilege they fight for their kids to have.
yes this is true
actually I am far more annoyed by the people in my area whose kids went to the excellent state school because they live nearby telling me off for sending my kids to an average private school even though my kids original state school was uber shite and by the time we left had teachers picketing outside

65.1% of students in UK get English and maths at Grade 4 or above. Grade 4 is the 'standard pass' grade. At grade 5 over 50% of students get English and over 50% get maths; the crossover group getting both is indeed around 45%, and not a majority - but grade 5 is the 'strong pass' grade.

Learning disability is used to refer to students with marked limitations to their learning capability - applies to under 3% of students. Students with specific barriers to learning like dyslexia are probably about another 15%.

The way GCSEs are structured mathematically means about a third of students will obtain grades under 4 by design.

I would suggest your idea that 'anyone without a clear learning disability is capable' of grade 5 in English and maths is inaccurate.

I would describe moving into the catchment of better state schools as 'gaming the system'. I would not call giving different reasons from the ones you approve or believe for sending children to private schools 'gaming the system', although it could be lying. But I don't understand why it is a problem for you. People can send their kids to whatever schools they like and can afford and they don't actually owe anybody an explanation or excuse.

It's really not the school that makes the child. Kids going to private school might get a better education overall because of the options offered, less disruption from other pupils, more attention etc....but they won't get better teaching.

Clever kids with parents who teach their kids to be tenacious, ambitious, and most importantly who learn the notion of investing in the present to collect the rewards in the future will do just as well in a comprehensive school.

If private school prepared pupils so much better for medical school, they would score much higher in medical school exams than those coming from state schools. It is not the case.

"Educated, responsible adults want the best possible education for their children" shocker!
And I mean "education" in its broadest sense, not just academic but values, resilience, social skills etc.
Good for these professional parents, I say.

Isn't gaming the system in any form The way people get on in life? For good or bad. Legal or illegal.

Just wait until AI really kicks in, and starts to wipe out hitherto, unaffected professional jobs. It won't matter what sort of fancy, expensive school you went to.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Yes but when the DC said they wanted to be an architect they were told to consider graphic design as it was easier. I think that’s quite sad. Good for the DC to ignore the advice.

If you need to work long hours, you want your children in nurturing environments which state schools, with all the best will in the world of its staff, really cannot provide
Not sure where you live but that's totally wrong where I am. All primary school offer morning and afternoon clubs, either in their building or in collaboration with a social centre. These offer brilliant activities. My kids did cooking, drama, IT, sport activities. They had a great time. Secondary schools offer after school activities every day too.

I think you are using the wrong words to describe it. However, my child went to grammar because she wanted to. Did I want her to yes of course but it was her choice to try. However if she hadn't then we would have sent her privately.
I am not in any way middle class though!

No. You live in such an echo chamber you don't even recognise that you are doing it!!

State schools have catchment areas. That is your normal school.
Paying fees, or tutors or to move to a better catchment is gaming the system. Yoj are paying to disadvantage other people's children!

We do private purely because the behaviour is so much better. No other reason.

Paying fees has no impact on state schools other than to reduce demand for places in them.

Tutors only affect selective schools ie grammars which are very much in the minority. Anyone can sit the papers they’re free.

Buying a house in a particular catchment - that’s playing the system.

No one pays to disadvantage other children. But they will do what they can for their own

They might encourage them to do well at school with no real expectations or guidance. It’s just not a priority for most Brits, even those who are loving/good parents overall.

I don’t see what you’re complaining about. You say your parents “dgaf” about your education, and you think that “most Brits” don’t prioritise their DCs’ education. Yet you’re complaining about the parents who DO care?

YABU. One of the main things parents should care about is their DCs’ education. Parents should prioritise it.

It’s the parents who don’t who are the problem, not the the parents who do.

We did extensive research, visited seven secondary schools, and sent our daughter to a school that she needs to take a public bus to as it’s not one of the 3 schools in our local town that would be where nearly every other child from this town would go.

It’s still a fairly average comp, but it’s smaller, and we felt a better fit for our daughter (who has SEN). Is that gaming the system…? Or just doing your homework and making a well informed choice…? 🤔 I suppose the only thing that might be considered gaming the system is that not everyone would be in a position to afford the public bus fare to the next town.

I was staggered by how many families just automatically send their child to the local catchment school, because they don’t realise they have choices. And conversely the number of families who aspirationally apply to schools that they do not have any chance of getting into, because they haven’t looked up the admissions criteria and how they have been applied historically.

I feel really strongly that social mobility is never going to be a thing unless all parents can be equipped to be able to make well informed decisions about schools. I don’t think that’s gaming the system.