To think Gill Pharaoh had the ideal end of life

[CurdinHenry]

Article in the Times about this woman who decided to end her life through voluntary euthanasia at 75. Huge outrage on social media as a result as various people missing the point entirely express fury because they think being very elderly will be great fun. I personally don't want to get older than that. I don't ask anyone else to take the same view but it stresses me out that the naive want to reduce choices available to the prescient. Euthanasia should be available to everyone without condition.

Thinking that way doesn’t make her “mentally ill.” She sounded like a very rational woman to me. I don’t understand why her choosing to die at age 75 is so problematic for some people? It would’ve been very cruel to “make her” carry on living against her will.

It’s not quite that simple. How long before a choice becomes an expectation or even a requirement? Don’t get me wrong I do support euthanasia when people are actually ill.

I just find this kind of thinking so narrow minded. We seem to accept that humans have natural variance in what they enjoy and can even tolerate regarding everything else. If I suggested a 14 day cruise or a trip to Disney, these things would be some people's dreams holidays and other people's worst nightmares. Why wouldn't this variance extend to life itself and even getting old?

Some people enjoy the essence of being alive. They can accept getting old and the challenges this brings as part of a life that they overall enjoy. They don't see life as a huge effort or something to endure. I am in this group myself and value my life enormously.

Other people simply don't want that for themselves in the same way they perhaps don't enjoy Christmas or long walks. I think it's wrong to assume that people that view life differently to you or me are automatically wrong or mentally unwell. Who is to say what is normal or right? We are all wired differently and will have a different outlook on everything including whether we think life is always worth living.

How is this different to abortion? Why do we allow abortion and not euthanasia?

Both could be subject to external pressures and expectations. Both decisions are made in the context of societal and economic factors. Both are about body autonomy. Both are about ending life.

@MrsShawnHatosy ”The idea of it becoming unacceptable to simply be old is horrifying to me.”

The idea of needing care and losing my mind is “unacceptable” to me. I would rather have fewer years but die while I’m still healthy. No one knows what state they might or might not end up in. Gill Pharaoh was preempting the physical and mental decline of old age.

Because abortion involves a foetus and euthanasia involves an independent living human being?

That's an interesting point

Pre-empting needing care by ending your life while you’re still healthy is a bit like pre-empting being hit by a bus by never leaving the house though.

But being an independent human being surely makes the whole issue less morally complicated because you have capacity to end your own life. In an abortion then the mother ends a dependent life that doesn't have capacity to end it themselves.

Just for the record, I am pro choice.

What are the odds of being hit by a bus versus the odds of needing care when you get older? Not comparable at all.

I would welcome it if it was a requirement for dementia. There is a HUGE shortage of carers in the UK which is only getting worse. You can’t magically conjure up carers out of thin air!! I never want to have to rely on carers looking after me.

Why is it such a problem for you that someone chose to end their life before they got too old? Her rationale seems very sensible to me.

I am about as far from being “liberal left” as possible. I am however, still deeply disturbed by the horrific deaths suffered by some of my loved ones, some very young (20s). I do not want to die like that. At all. It is barbaric, and traumatic for all involved. For you to be so dismissive of people who have witnessed that and write them off as “liberal left” is narrow minded at best.

On an individual level, that might make sense. But on a societal level, normalising killing oneself as a healthy and sensible choice, even if one is fit and healthy, or (as in other cases) when one is depressed and unhappy, can have all sorts of potential negative repercussions.

After all, doesn't normalising euthanasia mean that we should stop trying to prevent most suicides, even if they're depressed (as long as the person is competent), and instead offer the person euthanasia?

On a personal level I don't really care, but on an ethical level, it seems like it being normalised could create a potentially dangerous shift in the way we view and value the continuance of life.

@Ihatehottubs
It really annoys me too. It’s about giving people the choice to end their life when they want to. Some people reach a point where they’ve had enough of living. Just because other people can’t understand that, doesn’t mean that assisted dying shouldn’t be legal. We all have our own unique feelings and experiences of life.

This is what I feel. Euthanasia IS like abortion in that if you’re in favour of it you should be in favour whatever the reason. What if Gill Pharaoh had been in her50s with teenage children? Would anyone still be saying “yay, good for her”?

I’m in favour for whatever reason. It’s worse to stay alive and suffer if all you want to do is die. It’s always been about choice for me.

There wouldn't be a shortage of carers if we paid them properly. Thats an economic decision made by private companies.

I can see it from both sides.

I’m mid/50s and have a few health conditions that are already impactful. I think I’d rather go at 75 than drag on until mid-80s in poor health, although it seems Pharaoh was scared of what might happen rather than what was happening.

My mum died at 71 (from cancer), and she was nowhere near ‘elderly’. She was still working part-time, volunteered, was socially active etc.

75 may have been elderly a generation ago, but now it’s seen as young to die, over 80 I’d say was elderly. I prefer ‘senior citizen’ - it’s more respectful.

If I had decided to kill myself I would be extremely “pissed off” if someone tried to revive me. It’s giving people the choice to decide for themselves when they want to die.

Because it isn't a life until it is born, which is why the law is different.

Nobody is stopping anyone going off and killing themselves and never have done. I think this is about asking to be 'put to sleep' via an injection when you ask for it.

A lot of people don’t want to become carers. It’s a hard job and heavy workload, with carers supporting patients with increasingly complex, multiple, and long-term health conditions. Even if the pay was better there would still be a shortage.

Yes it is. Why is that considered so wrong? It would be great if you could just “go to sleep” via injection or taking a pill when you’ve had enough of living.

She didn't want them.