To think Gill Pharaoh had the ideal end of life

[CurdinHenry]

Article in the Times about this woman who decided to end her life through voluntary euthanasia at 75. Huge outrage on social media as a result as various people missing the point entirely express fury because they think being very elderly will be great fun. I personally don't want to get older than that. I don't ask anyone else to take the same view but it stresses me out that the naive want to reduce choices available to the prescient. Euthanasia should be available to everyone without condition.

No, I'm not saying anyone should live their life to please others, but we don't live in isolation and during our life we make connections that are important to others, particularly family where it functions lovingly, which very much seems the case here. None of our decisions are completely autonomous. Divorce etc is different. That's a breakdown in connection. This isn't a breakdown, this is leaving a connection because of the risk of something happening and it is a risk, not an inevitability, as we have seen many of examples of people gaving good healthy years after 75. We live with risk daily, but it's rare to permanently, as in deliberate death, mitigate the risk to this extent.
Maybe we should normalises living wills where we state the criteria thar we want assisted death. Everyone's criteria would be different, but not many would want to be kept alive for 10 years sitting in a chair with no self autonomy or awareness.
I agree we prolong life too much for the sake of prolonging it, but wouldn't agree that just the risk of the 10 year chair is a reason for the State to assist in stopping life. Everyone is shaped by personal experiences, though.

I would actually like to know. People keep saying we need good palliative care and then everything will be fine and dandy.
However if your experience says different then yes that is useful.

I certainly never intended to cause offence so I apologise.

However, it's important to note that your description of "play your game" was pretty offensive to me.

I imagine staff shortages is a huge problem and limited weekend and night cover. Doctors also can delay recognising a patient is entering their final days.

I would agree with this. History has shown us whole swathes of society are dispensable if it saves us using resources . If we can get rid of a good percentage of old people at seemingly their own bequest, then that's a plan. Use the advance medical break throughs and high quality health interventions for those that can pay for it. I think 67 seems like a good tipping point. Costs can be recovered from family.

Yep, good palliative care is not always possible.
And not everyone wants to spend their final weeks and days in beds on heavy duty meds.

Humans are dispensable. We are functioning as a brief physical occurrence in a vast universe.

This has really made me sad 😔 I've "sent" you flowers for support. It is heartbreaking that your Mum doesn't have much pleasure in her life anymore and, doesn't have the comfort of memories- this has never occurred to me to think about when it comes to dementia 💔 My grandma had it and died at 84, but also had other physical health problems. This was nearly 12 years ago. I wish you and your family all the best 💐

THIS MAY BE UPSETTING TO READ. (AND I WISH THIS FORUM HAD A SPOILER FUNCTION.)

It is a total myth that it is possible to remove all pain in conscious people without giving life ending amounts of drugs. Since Shipman, life ending amounts of drugs are not an option.

Even in a fully staffed hospice, there are priorities and if someone else's priorities are greater than yours at that moment then you wait in pain and or indignity for someone to be free to help you.

Palliative care involves ongoing loss of dignity, wearing nappies and bathed like a baby.

Palliative care at it's absolute best is still not an acceptable way for me personally to check out of life.

One of my nan’s had a fall which resulted in a bleed on the brain. She was admitted to hospital and despite some rather poor care, seemed to be making progress. Then she suffered another catastrophic bleed and we were told she wouldn’t survive. At best, she had a few more days. But Nan clung on, she died having had no food or water for days, laying completely immobile and incapable of speech on an incontinence pad with tears streaming down her face. We visited her every day for over two weeks, watching her get more distressed each time. What she went through was bloody inhumane.

The thought of that happening to me scares me far more than choosing to end my life on my terms.

This is exactly what people are reporting about themselves and their family members and I’m becoming angry at those who insist that this isn’t true. Even medical professionals say this and I can only conclude that it’s wishful thinking.

That is why many of us wish to have the option of removing ourselves from life before situations like this occur. Many of us are familiar with the saying “better a week too early rather than a date too late”, with our pets and this is what’s going on here. I appreciate that people object to the parallel with veterinary care, but the dilemma is the same.

By the time you’ve had a stroke and are incapable and in hospice care, you are no longer able to make choices about your end of life.

My mum died at 75. After not being treated ( eventually) after a catastrophic stroke as per her wishes which she had previously set out in an advance directive And that was a palaver trying to get the medics to recognize her AD

If there's one thing that this thread is highlighting it's that we should all be able to have advance directives on what we want when we get sick as standard and this should include end of life and they should be implemented without questions if the situation arises. That's they way I'm going, but I would hate to think any health care professional would decide they knew better, which wouldn't be uncommon in my experience.

I've been through BC treatment and there's no way I'm going through that again. I've made it clear to everyone that if when the cancer comes back to get me, whether it's in 5, 10 or 20 years time I will end my life. I will not suffer a prolonged, painful death.

I know how I'll do it, it will be a peaceful death. Cue horrified friends saying 'Oh no, you can't do that'. Yes I can do it. It's my life and I can end it however I like. If I was a cat or a dog I'd be euthanaised, no one would expect an animal to suffer like that.

Hmm they heath professionals were tube feeding mum and giving her IV antibiotics, both against the AD requests

Didn't help was in COVID so we weren't allowed there. And mum was unable to speak for herself

Well please explain then why you need to label people as elderly? Do you have a problem with people just being people whatever age they are?

This is what I would be concerned about. Especially if I had nobody to advocate for me. There's definitely worse things than dying.

Sounds like me... And The Who!

But... she WAS old... She just wasn't senile/decrepit/ancient... yet. Are we now pretending that 75 isn't "old"? Which is not to say that being old is necessarily a bad thing, nor that old people can't have a great life, but it IS old.

I think this woman will become a new personal role model.

This thread is exactly the reason why I’m dead (excuse the pun) against euthanasia.

Where does it stop? Once the cats out of the bag? People that feel a bit depressed? The homeless? Old people that are made to feel like they are a burden on society? (And their kids/ the government can’t wait to cash in on their deaths?). I guess it would save the government a lot on pensions and free up housing.

It’s a sick, horrible idea. But it comes as no surprise that most voters on liberal left Mumsnet have voted YANBU.

WTF? Are you for real?

So sorry for what happened to your nan we had similar with my nan although it was due to her vascular dementia progressing to the point where she didn't want to eat or drink anymore. It was really hard knowing what to do then because you can't force her to eat/drink, even though apart from that she was doing well. I had a convo with her the week before and she was fine-her short-term memory was terrible of course but other than that and some mobility issues, she was doing well. Her body just decided to shut down though.

I'd looked up tube feeding as that seemed like the obvious solution-but no, it's not that humane and it doesn't prolong life anyway. Watching someone die due to lack of food/fluids seems SO inhumane though.

It's quite disturbing. She could've had 15 very hale and hearty years left before beginning the decline of old age that leads to a markedly poor quality of life.
It sounds as though there were a number of factors in this case that have been brushed over, which highlight how problematic euthanasia is for people who don't have imminently terminal illnesses.

If you were a cat or a dog, you could be sterilised or bred against your will, too, or killed while perfectly healthy, if the people who look after you decide they want that.
I'm not sure being treated like an animal is really a comparison that people should be making, here.

It is. Apparently she’d been thinking about ending her life since she was quite young. I don’t think she was well mentally whatever anyone says.

The idea of it becoming unacceptable to simply be old is horrifying to me. And I don’t think our youth obsessed society is that far off from that.

Euthanasia is only “problematic” for people who don’t want it. It makes perfect sense to people who want that opinion. Just because some people don’t understand why someone would choose to end their life, doesn’t mean they have the right to stop other people from doing. Give people the choice!!