To think Gill Pharaoh had the ideal end of life

[CurdinHenry]

Article in the Times about this woman who decided to end her life through voluntary euthanasia at 75. Huge outrage on social media as a result as various people missing the point entirely express fury because they think being very elderly will be great fun. I personally don't want to get older than that. I don't ask anyone else to take the same view but it stresses me out that the naive want to reduce choices available to the prescient. Euthanasia should be available to everyone without condition.

I guess it depends on your health. My dad was very ill last 2 years of his life, he died at 82. I know he was miserable and in pain. I think he would have done this if it was available to him. My mum is the same age, still alive and active. Totally mobile and has no serious health issues.

No one is “writing off” old people. But just because some elderly people are full of life, doesn’t mean that other people shouldn’t be able to die if they’ve had enough of living.

Unfortunately, plenty of people on Mumsnet seem to think they are. Someone posted a thread on here a year or so ago, suggesting that certain treatments and medicines on the NHS be limited to people below a certain age on the basis of cost to benefit ratio.

I don’t think it just depends on health. Some healthy people want to die (maybe preempting a decline in health like Gill Pharaoh.). Some people reached a point of just no longer wanting to live.

(“Now more than ever seems it rich to die,
To cease upon the midnight with no pain.”)

Doesn’t the Netherlands have a euthanasia policy? I think even in such cases there is a serious application process that must be ‘approved’ to ensure a person is making the decision themselves.
‘Euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide are legal in the Netherlands under strict statutory due care criteria: unbearable suffering with no prospect of improvement, a voluntary and well-considered request, and independent physician consultation.’

I am not against it; the concerns are always around a policy being misused.

All the comments about old people being a drain and no one to care for them are a bit disturbing. it sounds like blaming a person for aging gracefully and they should just die for the good of society. The problem is the government and no planning or foresight or care and typically turning people against each other. ‘There’s no money’ is such a load of sht. Why don’t people hold politicians accountable? because THEY are the problem. Not old people.

The Netherlands policy is very strict. It’s for people who have unbearable suffering. There was the case of the young Dutch woman ( Zoraya ter Beek) who was granted euthanasia for mental suffering.

NO ONE is telling elderly people to die. But if other people want to die (assisted dying) let them. It seems to me that people don’t like thinking about their mortality. We are ALL going to die, let people choose how and when they do it.

Indeed.

The talk about money and resources regarding caring for the elderly is centred on the current system we have where decent care is hard to fund and ascertain as an individual. At the moment AD doesn't exist so nobody is trying to coerce anyone into anything. This is just how society has structured themselves and the financial reality we find ourselves in where nobody's healthcare is fantastic unless you can privately fund it. The old are suffering undignified and painful deaths.

It's all very well pretending we can magic up loads of money and this won't be the case but we have no evidence this will happen, either here or overseas. Care can be incredibly expensive and few of us are paying enough tax over our lifetimes to cover all our costs to the state and then gold standard care in our old age that could run into hundreds of thousands of pounds each year. At some point we have to be realistic and stop blaming governments and politicians for everything. We don't have indefinite resource.

It’s not just about finding the money somehow, it’s finding people who want to be carers, nurses, doctors etc. It’s very hard work and people have more complex health needs than ever before.

Politicians aren't the problem.

The problem is the success of modern health care in keeping ill old people alive.

There is no shortage of people who are already doctors or of UK people wanting to train as doctors. There is a surplus of tens of thousands of qualified doctors who can't find a training place for a specialism.

I’m sorry, you’re right about doctors. There are fewer people going into nursing and caring though. It’s financial but also not such a “nice” job anymore. (Severe workplace stress, heavy workload and staff shortages.) Can any of this be fixed in our lifetime? I really don’t think so.

The bunch of senior and experienced nurses who I met on holiday recently were unanimous that the answer for nursing is to drop the degree and qualify on the wards like it used to be.

No student loan then, either.

There is no shortage of nurses either, there is a shortage of nursing jobs because health authorities/trusts can’t afford to employ as many as they need.

I agree with this. Making it a degree stopped a lot of people applying who were not so academic, but were compassionate and good at the practical side.

Right now in the UK there are not enough people to care for everyone who needs it. This is one of the reasons I would like assisted dying to be legal (for any reason.) Obviously it’s not going to happen in my lifetime which means I will choose to die by suicide.

The number of under 25's entering nursing has increased . There's never been a shortage of nurses, there is a shortage of budget to employ them.

Long term recruitment is a problem.

It’s the result of modern medicine though - years ago when the only option was to be cared for by family (daughters/granddaughters realistically!) we got old, ill, and died promptly. Now we get old, ill, and live on for decades. Someone is providing that care, wether its a family member or the state. And that costs, both financially and emotionally. My cousin spent nearly 30yrs caring for her mum, she got to 103, and now she’s nearly 80 herself!

Politicians absolutely ate the problem when they substantially underinvested in healthcare resources for years and systematically begun the process of dismantling the NHS. All the comments about magically funding are so woefully naive. This isn’t about one political party either. This has been going on for decades, the UK healthcare system lags behind most european countries in capital investment and spending per capita on healthcare. There is money and has been and it’s not about the current crisis. There has been conscious choices not to increase funding which cuts caring resources first. Not to mention other policies like not raising the minimum wage or making caring roles attractive as careers. I can remember massive campaigns in the early 2000s to attract new teachers because I almost signed up. Saying it’s not the fault of government policy is brilliant, because their campaign to not have any accountability is working.

Exactly. The underfunding of healthcare generally has been going on for decades.

Your poor cousin!! Pneumonia used to be called “the old man’s friend” because it provided a quick, relatively painless end for the elderly and frail before modern antibiotics existed, sparing them a prolonged decline.

Too simplistic by half but this is not the thread for me to argue it.

Fundamentally, death is NOT the worst thing that can happen to a person.
But it is also about choice. I want to be able to choose the time of my death (and for it to be successfully assisted/managed). I want it to be before I become sick/incapacitated/ demented / in need of permanent care. But because of my age, and the current laws in this country, I think I am unlikely to get my wish. That makes me sad.
What other people might want or choose is unique to them, but many of us are being denied our wishes.