To think Gill Pharaoh had the ideal end of life

[CurdinHenry]

Article in the Times about this woman who decided to end her life through voluntary euthanasia at 75. Huge outrage on social media as a result as various people missing the point entirely express fury because they think being very elderly will be great fun. I personally don't want to get older than that. I don't ask anyone else to take the same view but it stresses me out that the naive want to reduce choices available to the prescient. Euthanasia should be available to everyone without condition.

Is the foetus a life the day before it is born full term?

There’s something to be said for leaving the party while you’re still having a good time

I agree!! “Get out while the going is good!!”

In your opinion they're not comparable.

Biology says that a fetus is a life so ultimately your assertion that it isn't a life is straying into personal belief. Very few people believe that 39 week old fetus isn't a life.

People don't abort at 39 weeks.

Absolutely. Literally and figuratively.

As a Classicist, this is all very Ancient Roman. Things really do circle all the way back round...

Romans had a broadly positive - and certainly not a negative - view of suicide. This is why forced "suicide" was routinely offered as a means of state execution to the rich and important: you would be condemned to kill yourself. That may seem an oxymoron to some, but to the Romans, it made all the difference. You were going to die in any case, and you would be killed if you failed to go through with the suicide, but it was considered an honour to be allowed to choose the exact time, place and manner of one's death - a "good death" ("eu-" + "thanatos"), indeed - and you had the opportunity to redeem your public image and demonstrate courage. It was the difference between striding into the proverbial ring, gladiator-like, to greet death with open arms, or running from it and being hunted down.

That was interesting, thank you!!

Yes, the Romans' views on death and suicide are fascinating, and I would encourage anyone interested to read up on it.

For instance, in light of the discussion of abortion and whether a foetus is a "life", the Romans effectively didn't recognise life as having begun until one year; babies under this age were not legal persons and public mourning for any that died was legally prohibited. This was because so many children and especially babies died. Personhood and rights were accrued over the course of childhood - the older, the greater the "value" - and child death was not given equal weight to adult death until ten years old.

We have lost the belief in the value of life for its own sake, which principally comes from religion. We've also lost the belief that suicide is a crime which will be punished in the afterlife.

Once you lose that you can no longer insist that people stay alive when the day to day effort of living is greater than the reward that someone feels that they get out of life. And it alters the level of risk people are prepared to take that their lives will take a turn that they aren't prepared to live with but leave them unable to do anything about it.

Actually, it's very interesting and probably not coincidental that these Swiss assisted dying organisations have adopted Classical names like Dignitas and Pegasos...!

"All roads lead to Rome", indeed!

ETA: Ooooh, there's another one: "Athanasios"!

Very interesting... Strokes chin

Suicide is not exclusive to modern or industrialised societies.

The oldest known suicide note dates back to ancient Egypt around 1900 BCE, titled "The Dispute With His Soul Of One Who Is Tired Of Life"

Indeed. Life IS a big fucking hassle most of the time. I suspect some people just really hate being reminded of that and that's why they stick their fingers in their ears on dignity in dying.

I think people are more afraid of death than in the past. This is probably due to lack of religion. They don’t like having to think about their morality.

You said a feotus wasn't a life for as long as it was in its mother's body. If that's the case then why can't people abort foetuses that are 39 or even 40 weeks? Afterall they're not alive a according to you.

I think that if you feel ready to go, then there are a million different ways to top yourself in a comfortable and dignified way that doesn’t involve anyone else. You do whatever works best for you.

I’m firmly anti legalised euthanasia because I don’t have any faith in either the government or the NHS that no vulnerable groups will be targeted or that there will be no encouragement of people receiving significant and expensive assistance from the state.

If you think that you're not well informed. You can't do it in a way that won't involve someone finding your corpse unexpectedly, aside from anything else.

I hope everyone who is against euthanasia for me and people I love has an end of life that teaches them the error of their ways.

Your loved one will also end up at the coroner's and possibly their personal belongings being searched through for evidence that suicide was their intent. It could also end up as an inquest which can be traumatic for the people left behind, and can drag on for months.

Also, there will be no family around a bedside saying goodbye. The person who wants to end their life would have to do it alone, because anyone present when they end their life will get arrested and have all that to deal with too.

My DH is 74, fit and healthy, has all his marbles, and is still working full time running a very successful software company he founded in his 60s. I've just informed him that he's very elderly and should expect to pop his socks any minute now. 🙄

And that might be the most fucking horrible thing I've ever read on here! Shame on you OP.

What would they be then?

At the very least someone has to find your body.

And you need to make sure that won't be until after you are dead, so it could be a long time after your death and a horrible thing to find.

And it might go wrong and leave you with a brain still working but unable to live with any kind of quality.

For every person who is as fit as a fiddle at {insert literally any random age} there is someone who is extremely ill, lost control of bodily functions, no family, no friends, and life is unbearable with no chance of anything changing. For these people life can be physically and mentally appalling.

Do you think these people should be prevented from doing what they really want to do? Why?

Surely the idea that not everyone is like you/your granny/your great great great uncle/the milkman isn’t that hard to understand?

It’s amazing that some people are doing incredible things at incredible ages. Get yourself a job as a carer and you’ll very quickly see that not everyone lives like you. Go back to these same people day after day after day until they trust you, and have a chat with them. Some of them will make you cry.

Agreed. Shame on you

That's a really good point, nobody else can know or they can be prosecuted.

Which means the person intending to do it can't talk about it freely.

Which probably means they're more likely to do it.

And almost certainly means they'll do it sooner for fear of ending up in a situation where they would need help that they can't ask for.

Yes, because 6+months of pregnancy that permanently alters your body and risks your life, along with either labour or a major surgery that could result in birth injuries or death, and then months of postnatal hormone and physical issues, plus the fact that the child could get in contact in the future, are totally no big deal! 🙄

It's about not being pregnant, as well as not being a mother. And I'm sure if women could freeze or donate the embryos as easily and cheaply as they could abort, many would do that. The goal is not to kill the foetus, it's for the woman to be able to resume her normal, non pregnant life.