To think Gill Pharaoh had the ideal end of life

[CurdinHenry]

Article in the Times about this woman who decided to end her life through voluntary euthanasia at 75. Huge outrage on social media as a result as various people missing the point entirely express fury because they think being very elderly will be great fun. I personally don't want to get older than that. I don't ask anyone else to take the same view but it stresses me out that the naive want to reduce choices available to the prescient. Euthanasia should be available to everyone without condition.

I agree!! Her decision sounded very rational to me. If she became physically or mentally incapacitated she wouldn’t have been able to make that decision. She needed to be “compos mentis” to do so.

74 seems a tad young with no serious health issues, but then she was a nurse and I can imagine she has good personal reasons from her own experience. 75, I am beginning to realise, can be 'elderly' - my in-laws, for example, were pretty spry at that age (finally slowing down as they approach 80s) , but you see posts on here from people with parents in their mid 70s who are very sedentary, or not very social and are pretty much 'elderly' in terms of mobility and activity outside the home.

I have to say, I don't especially want to live beyond early to mid 80s - I know I will develop arthritis due to a congenital problem, so, barring major medical developments, I will not be able to be one of those super fit and active older people who can keep pretty enjoyable lives past that kind of age.

I wasn't suggesting there are more coerced abortions now

My point was that, in terms of legislation, pregnancy may only be terminated in v limited circumstances. In reality, people can now choose to terminate a pregnancy if they feel too young, too old, their family is complete etc

If assisted dying is permitted, I have no doubt that within 2 or 3 generations, it would be rolled out to people far beyond those who are terminally ill and in great pain

That is what some people want!! I want assisted dying for ANY reason, not just for the terminally ill. I want the choice to die when I’m fed up of living.

Euthanasia and assisted dying are different things. It does not help to keep using the terms as if they were the same thing.

Both unfortunately are illegal in the Uk.

Agree with this.
It’s not easy to humanely leave this life and many do it before they’re ready. If you are done, then you are done. If I am diagnosed with cancer or dementia I want a safeguard in place so I can go quickly and peacefully when I want to.
I don’t think there should be a set age- you get there and be absolutely fine! DM is 84 in quite a bit if arthritic type pain but loving life and not ready to go.

Yikes, I’m 74 and you’re making me nervous. My mother lived to be 97 though and it was only after 90 that her life became very difficult.
I’m not against having autonomy over our own bodies but I wonder if the people saying that 75 is elderly will feel the same at that age.
I’m not super fit and certainly won’t be hiking up mountains or running marathons but there isn’t actually anything wrong with my health either. I have a lot of interests and a good quality of life. Most of my friends of the same age are okay too, although a few are having problems and a few have died.
The letter explaining her decision and motivation sounds like someone with low level depression who has lost interest in life.
It’s tricky because I saw people in a very bad way when my mother eventually went into a nursing home and I wouldn’t want that.
Perhaps some sort of advance directive would work, a bit like doing a POA. 75 seems very young to jump out of fear of what might come next when you could have ten more good years. Be careful about stereotyping older people.

I really don’t understand this. Just because she might’ve had 10 more “good” years doesn’t mean she should’ve carried on living. She made a decision to end her life at age 75. Why is this a problem for some people?

You are wrong on the whole post you made telling me what I believe and what I was thinking, which was a complete fabrication on your part and I would be grateful if you would not do that again.

If you want to know what I am thinking and believe that I haven't written, please ask, politely, don't make things up.

I mean sorry I don't mean to be a downer but I don't want to live with the risk. My mum is 78 and I know it bothers her too (I have obviously never discussed my personal plans with her!)

But if people aren't coerced into AD then what's the problem? If they're making an informed decision and have the capacity to give consent then I am struggling to understand what the objection could be?

I just can’t help thinking of it from the point of view of her husband. Yes he said he understood her reasoning but he must have been devastated all the same as her children and grandchildren must have been. Having to fly home without her must have been awful. My DH is a year older than Gill Pharaoh was. I’m 11 years younger. He is fit and well and has great quality of life. We are currently on our way home from a three week holiday in Scotland. We’ve had a wonderful time. We just want to make the very most of healthy life while we have it. I’d be devastated if DH said to me that he’d basically had enough and wanted out, and hurt that our marriage wasn’t enough to keep him here.

And nobody is stopping any woman from taking an abortifacient and inducing her own abortion. Women still do this around the world every day, even in countries where abortion is legal and offered by the state.

However, self-induced abortion is generally very painful and bloody and nasty, is not guaranteed to be effective, and carries a significant risk of serious injury or death for the mother. In a civilised society, we recognise that many women are desperate enough to go through with it, anyway, so the medical profession provides this service in order to take away much unnecessary suffering and trauma, and to make the process as pain-free, risk-free and effective as possible.

You could say (and you'd be right) that state-assisted abortion results in abortions and loss of life that otherwise wouldn't go ahead - that it "encourages" abortion - in the same way that the anti-euthanasia contingent argue that state-assisted suicide "encourages" suicide.

The parallels are very strong and are not raised enough.

Only abortion is arguably "worse" from this POV, because it involves a consenting adult asking the state to end another (albeit dependent) life, rather than a consenting adult asking the state to end their own life.

Surely one ought to have more power over one's own life and death than that of another being? Therefore, I don't see how anyone pro-abortion can be anti voluntary euthanasia.

Many people might choose to end their life if they are depressed but come through it and are later glad they didn’t. It’s very tricky because unless someone is so mentally unwell that they have lost touch with reality I can see why it could be said that they can make their own decisions. I can certainly understand someone with a deteriorating health condition making that decision.

Not necessarily. Voluntary euthanasia and assisted dying/suicide are effectively the same thing, I would say.

Though euthanasia can also be involuntary, a la eugenics, or non-voluntary, as with non-human animals and advanced dementia patients (that is, for those without the capacity to express their will or to even have a will at all). That is definitely a different thing.

This is weird logic. Of course the point of abortion is to end the life of the baby. If women simply didn't want to be a mother then they could give birth and put the baby up for adoption. Lots of people do this and it's an obvious option for those with unwanted pregnancies. It's also a bit disingenuous to suggest that it's the pregnancy and not the baby that's the problem. Women have abortions because they don't want the baby to be born and to do this they must end the fetus' life. It's a means to an end.

People aren't opting for AD because they really want to kill themselves. They just want their life to end and unfortunately you have to do something to make this happen. Again, it's a means to an end.

You can’t stay alive (when you don’t want to) for someone else. Her husband understood that no one would’ve been able to change her mind. He respected her decision.

I want this for myself to but it's fraught with some pretty serious risks for permanently or temporarily vulnerable members of society.

I really don't know how it can be reconciled. There are some pretty horrifying stories coming out of the countries with the most liberal laws.

I've got relatives I could easily believe would cleverly coerce elderly members that they don't want to be a burden on the family.

We definitely shouldn't be forcing terminally ill people to die in pain, though, it's utterly inhumane.

I imagine you would be devastated if he met another woman and left you or indeed just wanted to start a new life without you. You would presumably though also ultimately understand that he is an independent adult capable of making his own decision and you would have to respect his choices. We can't live our lives for others.

Has Gill been a bit selfish? Perhaps but it would be selfish of her husband and children to stand in the way of her ending her life in the way she wanted.

@MrsShawnHatosy Some people get to a point where they are tired of living. It’s a growing phenomenon in western society.

I don’t think she was selfish. It would have been selfish if her family wanted her to keep living when she ultimately didn’t want to.

A foetus is not a life. It might result in a live baby but it is not a life whilst it is inside the mother. A miscarriage is the end of a pregnancy, this is not to take away from the grief attached to it.
They are not comparable

I think there will always be risks with assisted dying (like in Canada) but ultimately we should be allowed to have it as an option.

I wasn't suggesting it was a negative thing. Sometimes we need to be a bit selfish and put ourselves first. It doesn't mean we haven't considered the thoughts and feelings of loved ones but we can still decide to do something for ourselves that could hurt them and detriment their lives. We can't always live and make decisions for othe people. Like you suggest, that would be simply facilitating their selfishness.