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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to wonder why we care so much about overcrowding of prisons?

254 replies

Ellie126 · 23/07/2026 18:38

Just that really. It’s prison. For people that have committed horrific crimes. Why are we giving it a second thought? Granted, I know some crimes are less ‘severe’ than others but they should still serve the sentence they were given. I can’t believe this is even a political issue right now!

if overcrowding is really issue, should capital punishment be given to the most SERIOUS offenders? For example for the two men that abused and assaulted that poor adopted boy. If they’re taking up space… that would solve the issue? They have no place in society and we certainly shouldn’t be worried if they feel cramped!!

OP posts:
Gloriia · 24/07/2026 18:45

ToWhitToWhoo · 24/07/2026 18:15

I don't think anyone was referring to entertainment, or appearance of clothing, or one extra cell-mate. It's overcrowding to the point that prisoners end up like 'rats in a sack' and violence between prisoners cannot be controlled, and staff also get put in danger, meaning that few people apply to be prison officers and the situation just goes from bad to worse.

Someone upthread mentioned pink jumpsuits and tents had been declared inhumane in Texas hence my comment.

Violence between prisoners will be a constant problem regardless of extra cellmates. I'm all for good conditions etc but you've got to be realistic.

alliumursinum · 24/07/2026 18:46

Gloriia · 24/07/2026 18:03

It's like that bloke who only got 'manslaughter' for killing his wife. He'd dug a grave in the woods, history of violence how much more intention did the jury need!
They should do a basic comprehension assessment for jurors that they need to pass before being allowed to sit.

Edited

Based on some of your posts it would disbar you from being a juror.

randomchap · 24/07/2026 18:51

Gloriia · 24/07/2026 18:03

It's like that bloke who only got 'manslaughter' for killing his wife. He'd dug a grave in the woods, history of violence how much more intention did the jury need!
They should do a basic comprehension assessment for jurors that they need to pass before being allowed to sit.

Edited

Which case is this?

BIossomtoes · 24/07/2026 18:52

Gloriia · 24/07/2026 17:57

Yes sadly that's what happens when you get jury members who are thick and cannot interpret info and evidence.

They might not have set out that night to murder anyone but when you drag someone for a mile clearly they then had the intent.

Oh but no it was manslaughter not up for debate!

I really hope they don't release those feral arseholes early.

It wasn’t the jury that determined the charge. It was the CPS because it didn’t meet the level for a murder charge.

Netcurtainnelly · 24/07/2026 19:06

BIossomtoes · 24/07/2026 17:51

It’s not up for debate. They were tried and convicted for manslaughter. A murder charge wouldn’t have stuck.

If they'd given themselves up at the scene instead of trying to flee, the only thing they would have been in trouble for is stealing a quad bike. Imagine that. No murder/no manslaughter charge. Brainless.

I wonder what made them think it was ok to steal from others rather than getting a job.
Parents proud?
Will they be getting a job when they eventually come out?

CurlewKate · 24/07/2026 19:15

I hope all the “we’re a Christian country-we should stick to Christian values” people are opposed to the whole cares about prisoner’s human rights discussion.

CaptainMyCaptain · 24/07/2026 19:19

Gloriia · 24/07/2026 18:45

Someone upthread mentioned pink jumpsuits and tents had been declared inhumane in Texas hence my comment.

Violence between prisoners will be a constant problem regardless of extra cellmates. I'm all for good conditions etc but you've got to be realistic.

I don't think anyone was objecting to the colour of the jumpsuits but tents are not suitable accommodation particularly in our climate. They're hardly secure either but I expect you want the prison officer to be armed.

Gloriia · 24/07/2026 20:10

CurlewKate · 24/07/2026 19:15

I hope all the “we’re a Christian country-we should stick to Christian values” people are opposed to the whole cares about prisoner’s human rights discussion.

Sorry, what?

Gloriia · 24/07/2026 20:12

CaptainMyCaptain · 24/07/2026 19:19

I don't think anyone was objecting to the colour of the jumpsuits but tents are not suitable accommodation particularly in our climate. They're hardly secure either but I expect you want the prison officer to be armed.

Well I'd presume they'd be in some kind of secure area not the local campsite.

CurlewKate · Yesterday 11:59

Gloriia · 24/07/2026 20:10

Sorry, what?

Matthew 25. 36

Petrie999 · Yesterday 14:14

Victorius19 · 23/07/2026 21:00

I personally think they should be locked up in solitary for 23 hours a day, given basic food rations and not allowed any contact with relatives for the duration of the sentence... which they serve every single day of. Make it a hell hole that no one wants to go back to. Instead, it's basically a Butlins holiday camp. None of this X boxes, TV's, snooker tables and conjugal visits. Crime is so widespread because to most criminals, prison is no deterrent whatsoever.

If that worked, it would be a better argument. But the research shows it doesn't.

OonaStubbs · Yesterday 14:44

It would definitely work. Prisons haven't been like that in this country for many years so how do "the researchers" know it wouldn't work?

PetulaGordeno · Yesterday 14:56

Petrie999 · Yesterday 14:14

If that worked, it would be a better argument. But the research shows it doesn't.

@Victorius19 Where do you get the conjugal visits idea from?
Do you honestly think Wormwood Scrubs has a separate shag palace for visitors?
Looking people up 24/7 is not much of a deterrent. And it’s not all Butlin’s and snooker players.
Go and watch Jimmy McGovern’s Time get a real taste of what prison is like.
I do agree it’s not much a deterrent at times, some people see it as a badge of honour.
All visits in UK prisons between prisoners and loved ones take place in communal areas - please read the facts.

Netcurtainnelly · Yesterday 15:04

Favouritefruits · 23/07/2026 19:29

Prison is about rehabilitation how can offenders be rehabilitated in the conditions they are subjected too?

Some people cannot be rehabilitated and have whole life orders such was the seriousness of the crime

jacks11 · Yesterday 15:35

@Ellie126
Where do I start? The ignorance you have displayed is quite sad, actually. I am, by the way, no bleeding-heart hippy/socialist/left leaning voter- probably best characterised as a very slightly right-leaning centrist. I am a realist, though, and I am someone who has witnessed first hand how treating crime (especially among the young) as a public health problem substantially reduced crime and violence, when done well. It is not quick, easy or cheap, however.

The mark of a civilised society is how it deals with its problems. Prisons are not, and should not, solely be about punishment. That is certainly an important part of what they are for, alongside the deterrent aspect and protection of the public from dangerous people. Not everyone in prison is a danger to others though, and even those that are dangerous on entering prison might be able to be helped to no longer pose a threat given time and the appropriate help/treatment/education etc. Rehabilitation is vital, if we want to reduce the risk of re-offending once released- which most will be, at some point. I am, of course, assuming you aren’t proposing keeping anyone with a custodial sentence in prison until they die? If that is the case, that means we have to think about how best to reduce their risk of reoffending upon their release. Not solely for the sake of the individual in question, but for wider society.

We know that without rehabilitation, the risk of further offending is high. We also know that younger people, especially those who have committed relatively minor offences, tend to escalate the seriousness of their crimes after a custodial sentence without rehabilitation. We also know that, done correctly, rehabilitation works and reduces reoffending substantially. If we want any attempt at rehabilitation- which, if you actually care about crime and the impact on the victims of crime and on wider society, you would- it cannot be done in overcrowded prisons, for a number of reasons.

I am not advocating for prisons to be like 5* hotels with substantial luxuries- I do think they should have appropriate accommodation provided and enough space to exist with some degree of privacy; the ability to access safe hygiene facilities; to be able to have some exercise and to be able to socialise; and they deserve to be able to access education, medical care/psychological & mental health support- which trust me, is not possible to provide in overcrowded prisons. I simply believe that safe minimum standards should apply.

There is an argument to be had around sentencing/reduction in time served and parole- but that is separate from whether overcrowding in prisons is fine because they “deserve it”. They deserve punishment, but within set parameters which respect safety and rights. Because that is what your argument amounts to- all prisoners deserve to be stripped of basic rights to safe accommodation because they are “bad” and so we should not care what happens to them. Removing rights and basic dignity is not the mark of a civilised society. We protect the rights of everyone- even those who have done wrong- whilst making sure appropriate punishment is meted out and the public protected- they are not mutually exclusive possibilities.

Overcrowding is creating a tinderbox of trouble- at every level. It increases risk of violence and harm to individual prisoners, and to prison officers; it increases risk of unrest and even rioting. It means prison officers work is harder, more stressful and dangerous. There is also the moral hazard- they cannot do their jobs (to keep run the prison efficiently, ensuring the health and safety of all prisoners, whilst attempting to facilitate rehabilitation of inmates). It is incredibly stressful and soul destroying to feel all you do is fire-fight and cannot do your job- I know this from my own professional career (not in the justice system or prisons). Overcrowding causes harm to everyone involved, and ultimately wider society.

Not everyone in prison have committed “horrific crimes”- in fact, many haven’t. There are some who cannot be rehabilitated, of course, but that isn’t the case for the majority and we should never base policy on the minority who are the most problematic- we develop different ways of dealing with them because they are in the minority. Those that have committed truly horrific crimes and require lifetime imprisonment should also treated as a separate category of prisoner.

Most people aren’t born “bad”- they are shaped by their circumstances and experiences. Many people in prison are there because of mental health problems, deprivation/neglect/poor parenting- or even because of one poor decision which had a bad outcome. Those who have been in the care system are overly represented in the prison population. The list of the “why’s” is extensive- and it never, ever, excuses the wrongs they have done or removes the element of personal responsibility- but it can tell us how we might a) try to prevent others committing crimes by addressing wider factors that society at large can influence; b)help us to understand how to rehabilitate those who are already in the justice system.

So, yes, you should absolutely care about overcrowded prisons. Because it is a matter of individual rights, a matter that reflects whether we as a society uphold basic standards, it is a matter which directly effects safety of prison officers and inmates alike; it is a matter which tells us about the type of society we are because it impacts on whether we want to be seen to be “tough” and “giving him what they deserve”, vs trying to reduce the risk now and in the future by trying to do the things that we know reduce rates of reoffending. If you actually care about crime reduction and improving public safety, then you ought to care very much about overcrowding in prisons.

AutumnHazel · Yesterday 15:45

sauvignonplonk1 · 23/07/2026 18:48

I 100% agree that capital punishment should be given if there is irrefutable evidence that the person has committed the crime.

Conviction is on the basis of “beyond reasonable doubt”. If the evidence is “refutable” then the defendant shouldn’t be convicted!

The law requires that we don’t convict on the basis of “well, I think they probably did it”, but only when certain. We don’t, or shouldn’t, convict on the basis of “well, we think he probably did it, but we can’t really be sure”.

AutumnHazel · Yesterday 15:50

I do care to an extent about overcrowding in prisons, but I care more about not letting violent criminals out of prison early.

I’d much rather the former than the latter. I think most people would! If prisoners have to be in tents, so be it… I don’t think that’s a good thing, but it’s got to be better than letting sex offenders out before they’ve served their sentences!

AutumnHazel · Yesterday 15:55

jacks11 · Yesterday 15:35

@Ellie126
Where do I start? The ignorance you have displayed is quite sad, actually. I am, by the way, no bleeding-heart hippy/socialist/left leaning voter- probably best characterised as a very slightly right-leaning centrist. I am a realist, though, and I am someone who has witnessed first hand how treating crime (especially among the young) as a public health problem substantially reduced crime and violence, when done well. It is not quick, easy or cheap, however.

The mark of a civilised society is how it deals with its problems. Prisons are not, and should not, solely be about punishment. That is certainly an important part of what they are for, alongside the deterrent aspect and protection of the public from dangerous people. Not everyone in prison is a danger to others though, and even those that are dangerous on entering prison might be able to be helped to no longer pose a threat given time and the appropriate help/treatment/education etc. Rehabilitation is vital, if we want to reduce the risk of re-offending once released- which most will be, at some point. I am, of course, assuming you aren’t proposing keeping anyone with a custodial sentence in prison until they die? If that is the case, that means we have to think about how best to reduce their risk of reoffending upon their release. Not solely for the sake of the individual in question, but for wider society.

We know that without rehabilitation, the risk of further offending is high. We also know that younger people, especially those who have committed relatively minor offences, tend to escalate the seriousness of their crimes after a custodial sentence without rehabilitation. We also know that, done correctly, rehabilitation works and reduces reoffending substantially. If we want any attempt at rehabilitation- which, if you actually care about crime and the impact on the victims of crime and on wider society, you would- it cannot be done in overcrowded prisons, for a number of reasons.

I am not advocating for prisons to be like 5* hotels with substantial luxuries- I do think they should have appropriate accommodation provided and enough space to exist with some degree of privacy; the ability to access safe hygiene facilities; to be able to have some exercise and to be able to socialise; and they deserve to be able to access education, medical care/psychological & mental health support- which trust me, is not possible to provide in overcrowded prisons. I simply believe that safe minimum standards should apply.

There is an argument to be had around sentencing/reduction in time served and parole- but that is separate from whether overcrowding in prisons is fine because they “deserve it”. They deserve punishment, but within set parameters which respect safety and rights. Because that is what your argument amounts to- all prisoners deserve to be stripped of basic rights to safe accommodation because they are “bad” and so we should not care what happens to them. Removing rights and basic dignity is not the mark of a civilised society. We protect the rights of everyone- even those who have done wrong- whilst making sure appropriate punishment is meted out and the public protected- they are not mutually exclusive possibilities.

Overcrowding is creating a tinderbox of trouble- at every level. It increases risk of violence and harm to individual prisoners, and to prison officers; it increases risk of unrest and even rioting. It means prison officers work is harder, more stressful and dangerous. There is also the moral hazard- they cannot do their jobs (to keep run the prison efficiently, ensuring the health and safety of all prisoners, whilst attempting to facilitate rehabilitation of inmates). It is incredibly stressful and soul destroying to feel all you do is fire-fight and cannot do your job- I know this from my own professional career (not in the justice system or prisons). Overcrowding causes harm to everyone involved, and ultimately wider society.

Not everyone in prison have committed “horrific crimes”- in fact, many haven’t. There are some who cannot be rehabilitated, of course, but that isn’t the case for the majority and we should never base policy on the minority who are the most problematic- we develop different ways of dealing with them because they are in the minority. Those that have committed truly horrific crimes and require lifetime imprisonment should also treated as a separate category of prisoner.

Most people aren’t born “bad”- they are shaped by their circumstances and experiences. Many people in prison are there because of mental health problems, deprivation/neglect/poor parenting- or even because of one poor decision which had a bad outcome. Those who have been in the care system are overly represented in the prison population. The list of the “why’s” is extensive- and it never, ever, excuses the wrongs they have done or removes the element of personal responsibility- but it can tell us how we might a) try to prevent others committing crimes by addressing wider factors that society at large can influence; b)help us to understand how to rehabilitate those who are already in the justice system.

So, yes, you should absolutely care about overcrowded prisons. Because it is a matter of individual rights, a matter that reflects whether we as a society uphold basic standards, it is a matter which directly effects safety of prison officers and inmates alike; it is a matter which tells us about the type of society we are because it impacts on whether we want to be seen to be “tough” and “giving him what they deserve”, vs trying to reduce the risk now and in the future by trying to do the things that we know reduce rates of reoffending. If you actually care about crime reduction and improving public safety, then you ought to care very much about overcrowding in prisons.

Edited

Good post! It’s always good when someone shows they’ve actually given a topic some thought and recognise the nuance.

There’s too much bone-headed, infantile arguments of both sides… from the “lock up em and throw away the key for all them!” to the “we have to be kind…we can’t possibly let prisoners suffer in any way… and you’re a fascist for not wanting to let the offenders out early”.

AutumnHazel · Yesterday 15:58

CaptainMyCaptain · 24/07/2026 19:19

I don't think anyone was objecting to the colour of the jumpsuits but tents are not suitable accommodation particularly in our climate. They're hardly secure either but I expect you want the prison officer to be armed.

Tents may not be acceptable for prisoners, but being raped by an offender let out early isn’t acceptable either… We have to make hard choices sometimes… In this case, the “hard choice” is the tents in my opinion.

Gloriia · Yesterday 16:59

'I do care to an extent about overcrowding in prisons, but I care more about not letting violent criminals out of prison early'

And so should everyone.

sauvignonplonk1 · Yesterday 17:16

AutumnHazel · Yesterday 15:45

Conviction is on the basis of “beyond reasonable doubt”. If the evidence is “refutable” then the defendant shouldn’t be convicted!

The law requires that we don’t convict on the basis of “well, I think they probably did it”, but only when certain. We don’t, or shouldn’t, convict on the basis of “well, we think he probably did it, but we can’t really be sure”.

That’s exactly why I used the word ‘irrefutable’.

CaptainMyCaptain · Yesterday 17:23

AutumnHazel · Yesterday 15:58

Tents may not be acceptable for prisoners, but being raped by an offender let out early isn’t acceptable either… We have to make hard choices sometimes… In this case, the “hard choice” is the tents in my opinion.

Tents are just impractical in our climate. On every level it is not an answer to prison overcrowding.

Gloriia · Yesterday 17:32

CaptainMyCaptain · Yesterday 17:23

Tents are just impractical in our climate. On every level it is not an answer to prison overcrowding.

The original comment was about the US but some there had complained it was 'inhumane'. As a pp said temporary accommodation not ideal obviously but preferable to releasing violent crimianal early.

CaptainMyCaptain · Yesterday 17:38

Gloriia · Yesterday 17:32

The original comment was about the US but some there had complained it was 'inhumane'. As a pp said temporary accommodation not ideal obviously but preferable to releasing violent crimianal early.

The original comment was about Texas, my responses are about the UK.

Gloriia · Yesterday 17:44

CaptainMyCaptain · Yesterday 17:38

The original comment was about Texas, my responses are about the UK.

Yes but I don't think anyone has suggested tents in this country, the context was what is 'inhumane' and how some define it. For example tents and pink overalls in the US. Not inhumane surely.