To be sick of politicians using 'fairness' as justification for tax rises?

[Itchthescratch]

Fairness is completely subjective and I notice that this is often shorthand for giving more money to those that contribute the least.

Of course there will always be those that can't contribute much due to factors outside of their control, but we are kidding ourselves if we pretend that there aren't already lots of people that are scraping by doing the bare minimum (sometimes even less) and making completely irresponsible decisions knowing the state will ultimately insulate them from the consequences.

I personally know people that have had lots of children that they can't afford and can't parent properly simply because they wanted to. They are now on an incredible amount of money as the two child cap has been lifted. I know people that have stopped working because they weren't much better off than being on benefits and they couldn't be bothered with the hassle. I know young people that are already planning to stay on disability benefits their whole lives for mental health issues as they want to stay home and game.

Is it really 'fair' to charge the rest of us more to subsidise all of this?

I have a wide social circle. I also know rich people, middle class people, those working NMW jobs... I don't know why you think I've listed everyone I know. Odd!

Totally agree with you. And as I self employed person I still paid tax at the same rate as everyone else. You can put certain expenses against tax but our accountant was very quick to tell us if we tried to claim something we couldn't.

The small business person needs supporting.

Oh I agree completely, this is a massive conundrum for society. How do we disincentivise parents making irresponsible family planning choices whilst also not disadvantaging the kids more than they already are with too many siblings and often irresponsible parents? I will never be convinced though that handing the parents more money is the best way to help the children. I have seen and experienced too much to be convinced otherwise.

There’s lots of evidence to prove that people in the UK aren’t actually averse to tax rises provided it’s for the “right reasons” and they can see positive effects. I wouldn’t mind paying more in tax if the NHS was quicker for example, or they brought NHS dentists back.

Exactly this. I think democracy has had it if there is going to be a majority demanding more and more for nothing. The backbench MPs in certain constituencies will be prostrating themselves before potential Reform voters and positioning themselves as the Benefits Party. Those hanging on in constituencies with a high number of (traditional) Muslims will be doing the same plus promising lax immigration rules.

I didnt say that. Odd!

Its just you seem to know an awful lot of people who are so honest about their finances and blatent plans to stay on benefits. Its good they feel they can be so open with you I suppose 🥰

We have transitioned from a low pay low cost country to a lower pay high cost country.

There's no way back now.

The issue is that higher rate tax payers are far more likely to have private health and dental plans. Their only contact with the NHS would be A+E, and possibly a GP for referrals (although many plans now include remote GP consultations).

I have work colleagues (many of them immigrants) who have had literally no contact with what we consider institutions: the NHS, state schools, council leisure centres and swimming pools, libraries, the list goes on. They have no experience of these and barely know they exist.

Where I live there is a definite culture of one man businesses who only accept cash. Eg many in hairdressing/beauty are renting a chair in a salon & only accept cash. I doubt they pay much in tax. Many tradesmen doing similar.

Hearing this made me question my motives:
Are you a Socialist because you love poor people or because you hate the rich?

Are you just here for the sneer?

One where everybody pulls their weight to the best of their ability. There are very few people who can’t do anything at all.

48%.

the problem (in my opinion) is that they are throwing money at the NHS which doesn’t bear fruit; they don’t hold Civil Servants to account and they aren’t prepared to completely overhaul the education system so that it is actually fit for purpose.
Without grassroots change we are simply burning money.

I just find it really strange that op knows so much personal information and future plans about a lot of people. I wouldnt call it sneering but its cool if you do

💯

I can’t believe the amount of people prepared to make the counter factual argument that business owners pay the same rate of tax as employees.

They pay a lower rate on average, and that is a fact. Of course, that doesn’t go for every single business or business owner, and the scale of tax efficiency grows with the size of the business. But anecdote doesn’t trump data and, if you do even a tiny bit of research, you will find that is correct.

You can argue whether it is a good thing (and I do think true entrepreneurs should be lauded and rewarded) but you can’t argue whether it is a thing. It is.

The reason is the flexibility. A business owner can split their income between leaving money in the business, taking dividends and taking a salary to optimise tax efficiency.

And there are all sorts of ways of getting money out of the business other than a full sale such as selling a portion via private equity or the business loaning money at a low interest rate until it is sold.

I have seen this often. Posters that seem incredulous that people know other people that take advantage of the welfare state in this way and yet statistics prove they exist. Most of us have friends and relatives like this. Sometimes I believe that some posters believe that if they work to discredit accounts of this then the wider public might be persuaded that it's all some right wing plot. It won't work though because we literally know they exist as we experience them in our daily lives.

I've always wondered why Labour treat people wanting to keep money they have earned as greedy, yet apparently it's not greedy for them to keep taking more and more of that money off people!

Because those who net receive benefits outnumber those who are net contributors. As a politician it’s a simple equation when you want to win votes.

Tbf I know one person whos one of the people you refer to as they are a close family member. You seem to know many. Thats all I was pointing out. I absolutely believe you're exaggerating to try and prove your point but literally no one will care I think that. Certainly not "the wider public" 😂

I would like to live in a society where people take personal responsibility for their choices
Well that's the crux of the matter. What do you do when the consequences is poverty, especially for children.

Where does personal responsibility start and societal responsibility start.

That's the question noone can answer, hence where we are and will remain for a long time!

The trouble is, if people's tax pays to bail out people that have made bad choices, where is the incentive for the next generation not to do it?

I can never prove to you that I'm not exaggerating so I think we will have to agree to disagree. I looked up some stats just to prove that I wasn't an anomaly and it seems that around 3% of families have over 5 kids and are on benefits. I reckon I know at least 50 families in various capacities through work, friends and family so that makes sense that I know a few like this. Obviously the fact that I'm from an area with a high level of benefit dependency will make this more likely as a lot of my old school friends and relatives are still there.

13.5% of young people are NEETs. I know these young people largely through their parents who share their frustrations with me about their kids. Again, I know lots of young people in university, college and working so I would say that it's pretty normal that I would know a few NEETs.

As for quitting work to live off benefits, this is quite prevelant in my family. People have either quit entirely or reduced their hours. Some have health challenges but could have continued to work but decided it wasn't worth it. The stats show that this isn't unusual.

I think you are unusual to just know one person in these kinds of circumstances. I would understand your scepticism if I was claiming to know numerous astronauts or something, but I am describing pretty common setups that I imagine most people with an average size circle would recognise.

This is it. No one doubts that people getting benefits they shouldn't exist. But exaggerating to imply that lots or the majority of people in receipt of benefits (particularly disability benefits) arre doing this is really harmful to genuinely sick and disabled people.