To be sick of politicians using 'fairness' as justification for tax rises?

[Itchthescratch]

Fairness is completely subjective and I notice that this is often shorthand for giving more money to those that contribute the least.

Of course there will always be those that can't contribute much due to factors outside of their control, but we are kidding ourselves if we pretend that there aren't already lots of people that are scraping by doing the bare minimum (sometimes even less) and making completely irresponsible decisions knowing the state will ultimately insulate them from the consequences.

I personally know people that have had lots of children that they can't afford and can't parent properly simply because they wanted to. They are now on an incredible amount of money as the two child cap has been lifted. I know people that have stopped working because they weren't much better off than being on benefits and they couldn't be bothered with the hassle. I know young people that are already planning to stay on disability benefits their whole lives for mental health issues as they want to stay home and game.

Is it really 'fair' to charge the rest of us more to subsidise all of this?

I can’t get too worked up about it. VAT on energy always felt a bit dubious to me. Not as dubious as the new gov claiming £45 annual savings on a policy that is only currently in place for 6 months though.

Removing VAT on energy is a Tory and Reform policy as well. So if you really didn’t like it, you’d have to vote Lib Dem (although they want to cut energy bills in other ways).

My tax rate is over 55%, I work less because of it. What good is that?

Not gas, just electricity.

Indeed. One we can afford or one where we are in debt up to our ears and can’t afford to contribute to European defence / supporting Ukraine.

Fairness is definitely subjective and yet it is something humans feel extremely strongly about! Look at the estate threads where one sibling is willed more than the other. Both are getting money but the one getting less is more upset than if neither were getting anything.

So politicians are always going to talk and argue about ‘fairness’ in society.

I don’t think any of us (hopefully not anyway) would like to see people starving to death on the streets or dying of easily curable diseases, due to a lack of funds.

Equally, communism doesn’t work as people want to be, and feel it is fair to be, rewarded for their skills and efforts.

So we argue about fairness in between these two poles. The main parties aren’t actually nearly as far apart as most think. It is amazing how vitriolic people can get over the odd 2% difference in total taxation.

And the right wing always notice taxes but fail to notice pro wealth policies such as bank bailouts, too low central bank interest rates, lack of house building, COVID grants and purchases, zero CGT on primary residences and, especially QE.

A lot of bankers would have gone from high six figure take homes to zero had the banks not been bailed out by taxation on far poorer people. And there is no guarantee they would ever have been reemployed at anywhere near the same rate (same goes for City Lawyers and all the wealthy who service the bloated finance sector).

The reality is that, while high earners moan about things like putative wealth and property taxes (the first of which will never, realistically, happen), government policy (not talent!) has served them extremely well over the last quarter of a century. You only need to pull up a graph of income/wealth by quintile/decile to see the difference, and when you look at the top 1% or 0.1% vs the rest, it becomes very extreme.

Realistically, politics is difficult. It is a discussion about priorities, with no obvious wrong or right answer. I also think that the world (tech, especially AI) is changing so fast right now, politicians can’t keep up.

But that doesn’t stop a lot of people being utterly convinced by either right wing or left wing arguments without much to back them up.

If you rob Peter to pay Paul, you can always count on the support of Paul. Sadly there are a lot more Pauls on the voting register than Peters.

I'm not massively worked up about it but just pointing out that this is being presented as a saving for everyone but the reality is that it has cost some people a lot more than £45.

It also says a lot about the mindset of the government that with spiralling debt and public spending, scrapping the ID scheme could have been one less cost that needed to be funded but instead the money was instantly spent elsewhere on a scheme that will deliver very little long term benefit to the country. It's the equivalent of a family with a huge credit card bill cancelling an order for a new sofa and using the money to fund day to day living costs with no real effort out into lowering their outgoings.

Congratulations, you win the how many stereotypical Benefit recipients do I know Bingo.

What a strange thing to say. It's been all over the news this morning that digital ID was unfunded so isn't a source of money for a little VAT cut. Or do you think that every journalist has a grudge too?

@Doseofreality Are you suggesting I don't know these people? That they aren't real?

Why do you think so many people agree with me on this poll if these were stereotypes that nobody actually knew IRL. Most of us have relatives, friends and neighbours like this. They are pretty common, especially in some areas.

We should charge VAT on everything (about 12% on everything is revenue neutral).

The current system just adds complexity and cost, and encourages political tinkering. VAT special offer on summer fun, limited period only. VAT off electricity but only for a year and not for gas. Court cases on what is a biscuit. Political football on school fees. Etc etc.

If electricity is too expensive, increase supply. If some people are too poor to afford electricity, the issue is the poverty. Fix root issues not symptoms.

Who was going to pay for the digital ID though?

As a business owner I pay employee NIC, corporation tax and business rates. I also create many jobs and they all pay tax on their PAYE (as do I). I'm a top rate tax payer - there's no magic tax loophole where I can make wads of cash and not pay tax on it.

Small businesses are the lifeblood of the economy and many business owners (myself included) work their arses off to build and grow them. We also deal with massive amounts of stress and financial insecurity. This kind of anti-business chat is really annoying.

@VanessaFence ,

‘As a business owner I pay employee NIC, corporation tax and business rates. I also create many jobs and they all pay tax on their PAYE (as do I). I'm a top rate tax payer - there's no magic tax loophole where I can make wads of cash and not pay tax on it.’

Really? Do you have a decent accountant?!

You leave the cash in the business until it is sold (pay CGT on proceeds, and isn’t there a founder tax break too for entrepreneurs), you can lend yourself money if you need it for day to day living. What about share buy backs etc.

People who own businesses definitely pay a net lower tax rate on average, and not by a small amount. That is just a fact.

If you aren’t taking advantage of what is available, you are either very moral or a little naive.

This.

MIL only worked for 5 years before she had her family and another 5 years when her husband had to give up work, so gets Pension Credit. I worked for over 50 years and get state pension plus a small private pension.

She keeps telling me that I shouldn't have to pay council tax or for dental treatment, because I'm "on a pension".

Bless your little cotton socks that you think the self employed pay less tax than employees. We pay the same, except we don't get sick pay, holiday pay, parental leave, bereavement leave, maternity/paternity benefits (met a woman at a trade fair this weekend with a newborn in hand while she was wholesaling to businesses because funnily enough we don't get six weeks leave at 90% pay), pension contributions. And on and on the list goes. Please do share with the room all of these incentives and advantages you speak of, if love some of those.

Oh, and I think you'll find most of us don't have assets or wealth. We're just trying to keep our employees in a job while earning the bare minimum ourselves because we're nice like that.

Tell me you've never been self employed without telling me you've never been self employed...

If you sniff at £45 then you probably won't notice losing it elsewhere.

We should charge VAT on everything (about 12% on everything is revenue neutral).

I don't think essential items like food and energy should be liable for VAT. It would make them far more expensive for those on low incomes.

Yes I agree and patronising. ❤️ it's easy to pick at the positive contributors, who get off their arses and try to create growth rather than feed off it.

Edited

👏 ✌️

I don't understand. Who is sniffing at £45? My point is that it being funded by taxpayer money (I.e, our own money if you're a net contributor).

They need to move the bracket for the personal allowance now it's getting ridiculous, people I know on mid 50s pay e.g. £56k haven't had a pay rise since 2019 if you factor in inflation, they're paid about £48k in real terms. Me, on £32k which isn't far off the median, am paid around £25k in 2019 terms. It's getting beyond a joke now, just move the bracket, we all spend our earnings in the economy anyway.
Now that we have young people who A. Can't get work even if they try and B. Can only afford to rent if they do workz we are going to see a massive shift in the country's view of the value of workz there literally isn't a pint to it anymore..

Absolute bloody nonsense that only Tories own and run businesses 🙄. And obviously the last shower of shits idea of “fairness” was make sure the keep everything for your rich mates. The idea that all business people are good and public sector people are bad is one of the reasons we’re in this mess in the first place.

@VanessaFence is correct. Self employed people don't get sickness and holiday pay. They have to fund that themselves. Both large and small businesses were very bad;y hit by Rachel from Accounts and her jobs tax because that's what it was. All those little part time jobs that students and school leavers used to do in pubs, hairdressers and cafes have gone because employers can no longer afford to pay young people. The jobs tax is not the only reason for this (Brexit and AI have also played their part) but it was a massive own goal. No wonder people reduce their hours or look for cash in hand side hustles. They are tired of sucking off the tax man.

The Tories rich mates argument is a tired one. What about the middle income earners who need help. It's not just about rich people v poor.