AIBU to ask whether the death penalty should apply for certain crimes in the UK?

[PenelopeJoanSterling]

Because the topics got mixed up on my previous thread i thought id ask here, for certain types of crime in the uk, would you be either for or against the death penalty for certain crimes and why ?

And miscarriages of justice? Innocent people put to death? You ok with that, just to save you some money?

No

Because it doesn't act as a deterrent
Because even with DNA and tech, miscarriages of justice still happen
Because its actually more expensive to keep someone on death row and kill them, to keep them in prison
Because we don't have a justice system where the victims decide the punishment, the law does

So what's the point?

Well, he’s going to be deported. So he won’t be living next door b

I'm still not sure what your point is. You seem to be appealing (very poorly) to emotion, and arguing with assumptions you've made up, rather than what I've actually said?

In fact, I've made it clear I still fall on the side of not being in favour of the death penalty (if barely), and I've said nothing in regard to being outraged by murder. Murder is fairly banal compared to things such as torture, extensive child sexual abuse, serial rape, and other such sadism and brutality (which often culminates in murder).

No.

If killing people is wrong, it's wrong for the state to do it.

And then there's the many, many miscarriages of justice that would have led to innocent people being executed if we still had capital punishment.

Get a grip of yourself. Genuinely, get a grip of yourself. Go and tell Ann Widdecombe’s family that murder is banal.

Again, you seem incapable of basic reading comprehension - to finish the sentence I wrote: banal compared to things such as torture, extensive child sexual abuse, serial rape, and other such sadism and brutality

I'm afraid as you only seem capable of arguing in painfully blatant bad faith, and actively misrepresenting my position in order to try to twist my words, it's utterly pointless trying to engage with you.

I’m just genuinely astounded that someone can sit and type things like that. It’s concerning.

Lucy Letby is a good example.

I don't think the "beyond reasonable doubt" threshold was met in her case and think that she should have been acquitted, but I'm also not convinced of her innocence, if that makes sense.

100% for it. Not as a deterrent, but from a pragmatic point of view. Scum like Ian Watkins and the like, that recent gay teacher, who adopted a baby and literally raped it to death, the Southport killer and similar.

I don't see any point in keeping individuals like the above alive for decades, and wasting good money on their keep. Just get rid of the trash permanently, use the money on worthy causes.

As for 'my own family memebers', none of them are criminals, all of them are normal, law abiding people. And no, I don't believe they'd 'accidentaly' end up stabbing several little girls or being accused of raping babies, no. Or somehow end up in a situation being wrongfully accused of raping kids. Normal, decent people don't end up in situations like that. And if any of them would actually commit such crimes, then sure, fry them up too, they'd be dead to me anyway.

With some particularly horrible crimes - especially involving children- it's easy to understand the emotional drivers behind calls for the death penalty, however I firmly believe no state should have the power of life and death over its citizens, in whatever circumstances. Whilst the concepts of justice and vengeance may overlap, they are not the same.

The reading list for miscarriages of justice in the UK would be a bloody long one, wouldn't it?

I could probably think of 20 or more just off the top of my head.

Why do people keep bringing up the Southport killer? Are we really okay with executing minors? And if so, what is the minimum age?

What about people convicted of murdering babies? Would they get the death sentence? Sally Clark for example? Angela Cannings? Would you have put them to death?

It does. However I tend to think cases like hers might not be the problem, because it was so obvious there were issues with the case well before the most recent convictions in 2024. She wouldn't have been executed after the first tranche in 2023 because she still had to stand trial for others, and by the 2024 verdict Shoo Lee was involved and the New Yorker article was out. It's the cases where the possibility of an MOJ doesn't become obvious til later that would be the biggest risks.

No. And I don’t believe that all victims would want their killer executed.

Pro, for some crimes.

If someone murders another perosn maliciously, or takes someone's life through something like drunk driving, their own life should be forfeit.

Lucy Letby cases are why I think it should be something that has to be applied for, individually, on a case by case basis, and meet a very high burden of proof. I do not - probably like everyone on here - know the details of the case but there’s certainly a lot of confusions and questions out there to demonstrate the need for a very high burden of proof.

But we do have that in some cases. We do know beyond a shadow of doubt who was the murderer/ paedophile rapist in that Derbyshire case, and some of the grooming gangs perpetrators are similarly undoubted. The problem has been getting past the sexism and misogyny of the system, not who’s doing what.

Miscarriages of justice? What then when an innocent person has been killed?

im always a bit confused as to why not wanting someone to live next door to you is justification for killing them. Did you really think about the sentence before typing it?

this is what worries me, the lack of thinking. I don’t actually really care about the dying, even if it’s a miscarriage of justice- as a poster above said people die unfairly every day and I can’t say I give them much thought on any real level- but when it’s done be people who don’t give the action the thought it deserves it’s concerning.

You've asked 'AIBU to ask whether the death penalty should apply for certain crimes in the UK?' so I don't think you can take anything from the voting here as you haven't been clear in your question. Some may be voting for or against the death penalty whilst others may be voting for or against you raising the topic.

Yes I thought it through. You don’t want to live in a country that kills people’? I don’t want to live in a country where people men like that can be living freely next to law abiding people with innocent kids. That effectively empowers men to become serial paedophile rapists.

That's never how it works in practice, though. There is already supposed to be a high burden of proof, aka guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Letby, the PO scandal, Sally Clarke, Andrew Malkinson, and the 30-60 other criminal convictions turned over annually in the UK prove that the system doesn't work how it is supposed to work.

I know someone locally who was convicted of murder only on eyewitness testimony, no motive, no physical evidence. The eyewitness's husband did have a motive and prior convictions for violent crime, and the opportunity to commit the crime. Locally, not a single person believes the right person is behind bars.

As a "victim" (someone I loved very much was murdered), I can categorically state that you're wrong.

Also - you are free to hold whatever views you like. But don't attempt to justify them on the basis of spurious "concern" for other people.

Yeah, you can't start from a principle that we'll organise it in a way that means no MOJs. There will be MOJs. So it's a discussion about the extent to which we're prepared to accept some innocent people being executed.