It shouldn’t be said that “only women have a cervix”.

[Paddingtonsmarmaladesandwiches]

Watching Keir Stammer on Marr this morning scrambling to answer whether or not it is transphobic to say “only women have a cervix” was the final nail in the coffin for me this morning with Labour. In the aftermath of The Lancet calling women, “bodies with vaginas”, I think I’ve finally figured out that the current belief system is that transwomen are women, but women who were observed female at birth are “bodies with vaginas”. Clearly Labour aren’t in need of the votes of bodies with vaginas, brains and a spine.

‘Female’ at birth sorts this beautifully. I’ve noticed this popping up on forms recently and it doesn’t offend me at all.

So this means we are supposed to call transwomen 'people without vaginas'?

@Melroses

Sorry - lost the picture there:

Does India genuinely believe he has a cervix? I wouldn't be surprised if some men believe this too. There's a lot of ignorance about female bodies.

@Sparkyduchess I’m not sure IW is in a good place, not following her and not a fan, but since the vile JHB tweets, she doesn’t seem to be very happy and her tweets are not getting much traction.

@Famousfrays

Do men every get called bodies with penises? Prostate Havers? Etc.

No and this is irksome at the least. Theres a thread about Macmillan and how many times woman v man is mentioned on their website. Amazingly the words for males well outnumber the times woman has been used. Think it's in one of the feminism sections.

Its a perfect example.

We are talking simultaneously about womens rights and cervixes; and by extension trans men and non binary people.

The only people here not included are Men and Transwomen.

This is not about you. Why do they think everything is about them.

@Sparkyduchess

I’m not sure what to make of this…🙄

India W has had bottom surgery though hasn’t she? So her comments don’t upset me at all.

The vile tweets about JHB that IW tweeted - just to be clear.

@Melroses

Sorry - lost the picture there:

If she really believes she has a cervix then it's unfair people have led her on to believe this. Transmen of course have them as they are biological women.

India may have had bottom surgery, but they can't have an actual cervix. Seeing as how they are XY.

@beastlyslumber

I've said I don't know enough about this and was asking the question as from what I've seen, arguments seems to focus on transwomen, and transmen don't seem to be as highly represented.

You say Transmen are female. They will be aware of this. - ok.
My question was just simply that if you've transitioned and have a female reproductive system, it may be upsetting to have to refer to yourself as female when you now consider yourself male, that's all.

I didn't say "extremist" sides of the argument, I said "extreme" (in terms of all I seem to see is arguments for either side with death threats which tends to make me avoid the subject completely).

@sloanerangerpandora

Yawn...more transphobia from mumsnet.

How is it transphobic to want the vast majority of half the adult population to be called by the word that’s been used from time immemorial?

Or would the vast majority of the other half not object in future to being called penis possessors? Personally I think ‘willy wielders’ has more of a jolly sort of ring to it, but there you go.

(specifically when needing to access healthcare services as they'll need smear tests and all the rest of it)

I think I.Willoughby could keep it in a handbag…

It’s why women carry handbags, obviously. To keep their make up, phone, keys and reproductive organs in.

So should transmen have to refer to themselves as women (which I imagine would be traumatic and upsetting), to access the healthcare they'll need if they still have a female reproductive system?

Are you saying women should be referred to as 'cervix havers' no matter how dehumanising, traumatic and upsetting that may be for them just to pander to and appease the feelings of the small minority of transmen?

Transmen know their sex is female and therefore they will have health care needs that are exclusive to the female sex, it is therefore their responsibility to ensure their medical records correctly record this fact no matter how they choose to identify.

I wonder how the NHS is faring with all this because transmen still need to have smear tests, no?

What with Angela Rayner yesterday on Radio 4 tying herself in verbal knots to avoid admitting that women ( you know, the ones with a vagina) need safe spaces where men (you know, the ones with a penis) are not allowed , the Labour Party is making sure that at least 50% of the voting population don’t vote for them again. There must be a reason behind this cunning policy, but for the life of me I can’t work out what it is.

@RedDogsBeg

So should transmen have to refer to themselves as women (which I imagine would be traumatic and upsetting), to access the healthcare they'll need if they still have a female reproductive system?

Are you saying women should be referred to as 'cervix havers' no matter how dehumanising, traumatic and upsetting that may be for them just to pander to and appease the feelings of the small minority of transmen?

Transmen know their sex is female and therefore they will have health care needs that are exclusive to the female sex, it is therefore their responsibility to ensure their medical records correctly record this fact no matter how they choose to identify.

No I'm not the slightest and this kind of reply is why I don't venture onto trans threads.

It's a genuine question, not a goady comment or something to get a reaction.

My question was just simply that if you've transitioned and have a female reproductive system, it may be upsetting to have to refer to yourself as female when you now consider yourself male, that's all.

It's a hell of a lot more than upsetting for women to be dehumanised and referred to as mere body parts or the biological functions of said body parts.

[quote Saltedcaramel78]@beastlyslumber

I've said I don't know enough about this and was asking the question as from what I've seen, arguments seems to focus on transwomen, and transmen don't seem to be as highly represented.

You say Transmen are female. They will be aware of this. - ok.
My question was just simply that if you've transitioned and have a female reproductive system, it may be upsetting to have to refer to yourself as female when you now consider yourself male, that's all.

I didn't say "extremist" sides of the argument, I said "extreme" (in terms of all I seem to see is arguments for either side with death threats which tends to make me avoid the subject completely).[/quote]
I don't know enough about this and find trying to understand trans issues without getting caught up into the two extremist views really tricky.

You said 'two extremist views'. I'm aware of one. I was asking you what the other view is that you find extremist. Your answer?

all I seem to see is arguments for either side with death threats

Please share where you have seen women making death threats to TRAs or trans people. (No need to share the death threats from TRAs to women - they are constant.)

You do not have a female reproductive system if you have transitioned. You have a facsimile of female sex organs. Made out of male ones. Hope that helps.

@viques

What with Angela Rayner yesterday on Radio 4 tying herself in verbal knots to avoid admitting that women ( you know, the ones with a vagina) need safe spaces where men (you know, the ones with a penis) are not allowed , the Labour Party is making sure that at least 50% of the voting population don’t vote for them again. There must be a reason behind this cunning policy, but for the life of me I can’t work out what it is.

It's a cunning plan to make sure that Labour are unelectable. Unlike most cunning plans, it actually works.

I think Kier is actually done us a favour, I actually got a notification through Samsung news, as did my brother. He rang to say what I keep on about has made the main news, he thought what I was worrying about wasn't in mainstream society, to hear the leader of the Labour Party say that has opened his eyes.

Does that mean trans women should be called bodies with penis if they haven’t had bottom surgery or men with vaginas.

Of course we wouldn’t wish to offend those born with penis Havers.

My question was just simply that if you've transitioned and have a female reproductive system, it may be upsetting to have to refer to yourself as female when you now consider yourself male, that's all.

I don’t think anyone is expecting trans men to refer to themselves as female, but I also think there are far, far more upsetting things to deal with than the reality of sex. It should be possible to treat individuals sensitively and politely on a one to one basis and acknowledge the reality of how mammals reproduce.

We need clear, neutral language to talk about sex, not taboos and euphemisms.