It shouldn’t be said that “only women have a cervix”.

[Paddingtonsmarmaladesandwiches]

Watching Keir Stammer on Marr this morning scrambling to answer whether or not it is transphobic to say “only women have a cervix” was the final nail in the coffin for me this morning with Labour. In the aftermath of The Lancet calling women, “bodies with vaginas”, I think I’ve finally figured out that the current belief system is that transwomen are women, but women who were observed female at birth are “bodies with vaginas”. Clearly Labour aren’t in need of the votes of bodies with vaginas, brains and a spine.

Labour are going to fall into obscurity if they insist on not representing 50% of the population.

[quote Saltedcaramel78]@beastlyslumber

I've said I don't know enough about this and was asking the question as from what I've seen, arguments seems to focus on transwomen, and transmen don't seem to be as highly represented.

You say Transmen are female. They will be aware of this. - ok.
My question was just simply that if you've transitioned and have a female reproductive system, it may be upsetting to have to refer to yourself as female when you now consider yourself male, that's all.

I didn't say "extremist" sides of the argument, I said "extreme" (in terms of all I seem to see is arguments for either side with death threats which tends to make me avoid the subject completely).[/quote]
But surely if a woman who has transitioned needs some medical services, they must acknowledge that they are biologically female?

That's not offensive, that's just reality. When it comes to medicine, it matters what sex you are.

Also, it's not really up to women to change our language to accommodate that person's confused feelings.

agh - @beastlyslumber

I said extreme (as in the two very polarised sides with people screaming death threats), not extremist, I've said that twice now.

I've also said this is an area I don't know enough about and am trying to educate myself.

I was asking a question, I was genuinely trying to understand if this an issue or not, because as I've said twice now, all I see is transwoman being talked about. Transmen (ie those who were born female), don't seem to get the same level of representation.

Thank you all for the replies.

[quote Saltedcaramel78]@beastlyslumber

I've said I don't know enough about this and was asking the question as from what I've seen, arguments seems to focus on transwomen, and transmen don't seem to be as highly represented.

You say Transmen are female. They will be aware of this. - ok.
My question was just simply that if you've transitioned and have a female reproductive system, it may be upsetting to have to refer to yourself as female when you now consider yourself male, that's all.

I didn't say "extremist" sides of the argument, I said "extreme" (in terms of all I seem to see is arguments for either side with death threats which tends to make me avoid the subject completely).[/quote]
In fairness I do think there should be an option on healthcare systems that can record your preferred pronouns yet flags up when smears are due etc- this would also be very useful for medical professionals because things like blood pressure thresholds for concern do vary by biological sex.

The thing I don't get is why acceptance is the number one priority rather than people being proud of being a transman or a transwoman. Why aren't we hearing a call for third spaces? For acknowledgement that there is likely to be different medical and perhaps other support that trans people require and fighting for better access to it? Why is it that the word woman is considered transphobic in some cases, and organisations are rushing around to minimise women down to their reproductive organs? The claims that they are the most at risk group, when women are being murdered in the streets and in their homes at an alarming rate, its offensive. Plus a lot doesn't make sense. Why argue that when using the toilet no one cares about genitals, but then they go on to say that they don't want to share with x. Some I guess is growing up male and not realising the reality of growing up female and why they don't want men in their spaces.

all I see is transwoman being talked about. Transmen (ie those who were born female), don't seem to get the same level of representation

Because transmen biologically are women, and no one gives a fuck about us. Men always have the loudest voices, and in this is no exception.

Its just weird. I don't understand why it's not ok to say "only women have a cervix" but it's perfectly acceptable to say "only women have a lady brain". What if I don't have a lady brain but still know I'm a woman 🤔 why does having a lady brain make you a woman but having a cervix does not 🤔🤔

@Rhubarbsoup

all I see is transwoman being talked about. Transmen (ie those who were born female), don't seem to get the same level of representation

Because transmen biologically are women, and no one gives a fuck about us. Men always have the loudest voices, and in this is no exception.

Yes - this is what I was trying to say.

all I seem to see is arguments for either side with death threats

I'd like to see some examples of women making death threats to anyone involved in trans actvism. It's grossly unfair and untrue to portray "a both sides as bad as each other" situation when the violence and aggression is perpetrated by only one side; I'm quite sure you know that already.

Interestingly it’s trans men I’m seeing most offended @Rhubarbsoup

@Saltedcaramel78 I was asking a question, I was genuinely trying to understand if this an issue or not, because as I've said twice now, all I see is transwoman being talked about. Transmen (ie those who were born female), don't seem to get the same level of representation.

No they don't and there is one glaring reason why they don't and that is because they are female.

The changing of language isn't really for transmen although they are a useful cover for it, it is for transwomen and I'm afraid I'll have to leave it for you to work out why that might be.

@FOJN

all I seem to see is arguments for either side with death threats

I'd like to see some examples of women making death threats to anyone involved in trans actvism. It's grossly unfair and untrue to portray "a both sides as bad as each other" situation when the violence and aggression is perpetrated by only one side; I'm quite sure you know that already.

No I don't @FOJN

I am not saying that in the slightest but feel like I've triggered some kind of pile on.

Stupid little man, trying to police women's language and how we talk about ourselves. I’ll never vote for this misogynist pig, how dare he think it’s any man’s place to lecture women on how to refer to themselves. Sickening.

@Staryflight445

Interestingly it’s trans men I’m seeing most offended *@Rhubarbsoup*

Is it? Can't say I've seen many threatening women or raging about tErFs on social media.

@FOJN

all I seem to see is arguments for either side with death threats

I'd like to see some examples of women making death threats to anyone involved in trans actvism. It's grossly unfair and untrue to portray "a both sides as bad as each other" situation when the violence and aggression is perpetrated by only one side; I'm quite sure you know that already.

This was actually a conclusion in a government report on this issue. Women are concerned because of threats of violence against them. Trans rights activists are concerned that they are being portrayed as violent...

I can't remember the exact report but I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard for any interested or disbelieving parties to find on Google. I think it was to do with toxicity of debates in general but did have a specific section or at least mention on this issue.

I've never been angrier with Labour. Boris and his cronies are literally ripping apart this country in service to their pockets. Labour should be trailblazing and wiping the floor with the Conservatives as the opposition. Instead we get a mealy mouth TRA apologist who barely raises a peep in Parliament amongst his other shortcomings.

What a shower of shit!

@Saltedcaramel78

agh - *@beastlyslumber*

I said extreme (as in the two very polarised sides with people screaming death threats), not extremist, I've said that twice now.

I've also said this is an area I don't know enough about and am trying to educate myself.

I was asking a question, I was genuinely trying to understand if this an issue or not, because as I've said twice now, all I see is transwoman being talked about. Transmen (ie those who were born female), don't seem to get the same level of representation.

Thank you all for the replies.

I asked a question too, @Saltedcaramel78.

What are the 'two polarised sides with people screaming death threats'?

I said extreme (as in the two very polarised sides with people screaming death threats), not extremist, I've said that twice now.

I literally quoted you saying 'extremist' from your previous post, so forgive me if I am confused. I was responding to the words you used.

What I'm trying to work out is what you think these sides represent? I am very aware of one side which is definitely extreme, extremist, and screaming death threats at women, so I'm with you there.

But your posts suggest there is another side that is just as extreme with 'people screaming death threats'. And I would love to know what you mean by that.

So - for the third time - what do you mean by that?

@Rhubarbsoup yeah, on Twitter. Saying they’re a man with a cervix and how it doesn’t take anything away from CIS women apart from their right to dictate other people’s identity.

And comments about how this will cause people to die because they can’t source the correct treatment as their bodies aren’t normalised in healthcare.

The Labour Party has a Policy Contact Form
here
so you can contact them and question this.

We had some bright eyed young Labour candidates come round recently. They're hoping to win this ward in next year's local council election and are canvassing hard. Faced with a question about this issue they tried desperately to steer the conversation back to local matters.
But I can't vote for Labour at all if it doesn"t represent my views on a subject as fundamental as this.

I had a grand time on the doorstep last year with the Labour canvasser. MrM was giggling in the next room. I sent him over to take his shift and he went straight back to the same subject. Heh.

@@Saltedcaramel78, can you please provide examples of GC feminists shouting death threats? We've seen plenty of them from TRAs directed at women but none the other way.

Why argue that when using the toilet no one cares about genitals, but then they go on to say that they don't want to share with x.

This is such an important point. We are told that we're obsessed with genitals when we object to men in our public spaces, but those same men who self identify as women know exactly who they don't want to share with (other men) and how do they distinguish? Genitals.

Here's another weird one - grown men who identify as women don't have to go through any hormones or surgery to claim womanhood - to even suggest that they should is apparently offensive. And yet teenage girls with gender dysphoria are lining up for hormones and surgery and claiming it is the only way to relieve their distress.
So which is it?

When you scratch beneath the surface of any of this, it doesn't make sense.

Saying they’re a man with a cervix and how it doesn’t take anything away from CIS women apart from their right to dictate other people’s identity.

Sorry. No. They're a woman, however they feel about it. If they personally want to call themselves something else because they're unhappy with that reality then they're welcome to, but I'm not joining in with this any more.

@beastlyslumber

I think this is going to be my last reply on this.

I have said many times, this is something I don't know enough about. Clearly you do, and it seems like you're assuming I'm some kind of troll or someone slyly trying to get a reaction or undermine the thread. I'm not - I am trying to understand more about it.

I had a genuine question about transmen. When I've tried to understand more about this online, all is I see is angry threads, using references I don't understand, referring to people and situations I'm not aware of. If it's only one side being aggressive (i.e pro-trans? if that's the right term), then apologies, I'm happy to say I'm totally wrong.

Of course only women have cervixes, and safe spaces need to be kept for women only. HOWEVER what I have been trying to understand if their are some nuances to this, which is very hard to understand and get past the aggressive language online to see if there are any genuine arguments.

@AlfonsoTheMango

@*@Saltedcaramel78*, can you please provide examples of GC feminists shouting death threats? We've seen plenty of them from TRAs directed at women but none the other way.

See my post above - I don't have any and am happy to be corrected if this is something that doesn't happen.

@AlfonsoTheMango

India Willoughby is either lying or deluded. Either way, Willoughby does not and cannot have a cervix.

Are we all familiar with ‘Loretta’s struggle against reality?’……….