To think Laurel Hubbard should not be competing against other women

[Belle82]

I know I am going to get ripped apart for this.

I have no problem with the transgender community, that is your life/body and I am not one to judge anyone else, do what makes you happy.

There is something fundamentally wrong about a person who is biologically a man competing against a woman in sport as significant as weightlifting.
I am not taking anything away from women weightlifters, however when competing in that sport, a person who was born a man will always have an unfair advantage over a woman.

I am all for equal rights but it seems political correctness has now put us in a position that we will only consider the equal rights of those in the transgender community. What happens to the equal rights of all the other women who have worked extremely hard to get to the olympics who should be competing against biological women.

There needs to be clearer cut criteria on entrance requirements to every sport, to give every person the equal rights they deserve.

My heart goes out to all the other women competing who I’m sure must be somewhat disheartened about their chances of success now they are competing against a biological man.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/29/ioc-praises-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-ahead-of-transgender-athletes-olympic-debut

@WomaninBoots

I think RaindropsOnRosie is attempting to derail a thread that is shedding light on what the general population of women think about males in women's sports.

Quick quick! Look at meeeeeee! Not at ALL THE WOMEN SAYING "NO".

Yes, ignore. They're not posting in good faith

Attempted Gish gallop is obvious. No matter. The poll is clear & a second thread will poll the same.

Someone is fyoooomin that this thread is in AIBU and their ridiculous horseshit is on show to an ever wider audience than ever before!

Just to clarify a couple of misconceptions I have seen on this thread:

Is Laurel Hubbard a woman?
No Laurel Hubbard is a transwomen, a male who says they are a woman by virtue of their feelings.

Don't transwomen have surgery to make them women?

No. No surgery can change you from male to female. Even pushing this basic fact aside, statistically most transwomen keep their penis so surgery is the exception rather than the rule.

Don't transwomen have lower testosterone which would negate any advantage they have?

No. The ioc requires testosterone levels to be many times higher than a woman's in individuals who are transgender. If a woman had anywhere near the minimum testosterone level for a trans person she'd be disqualified for doping.

Also men's bodies are powered through puberty by testosterone. If a male has been through puberty they'll have higher muscle to fat ratio and retain this even if they suppress testosterone later.
Men also have skeletal and organ advantages,.like larger lungs that bestoy an advantage not taken away by suppression of testosterone.

Why is this allowed?
In the name of inclusion, only trans representatives were consulted on changing the rules so males could take.part as females. Women weren't consulted.

Where are the feminists? Why didn't anyone say anything?

People are being silenced. People have lost their jobs, had rape and death threats for speaking out. Many media outlets have suppressed what's really happened.

The Olympics isn't important. It's just sports right?

No. Aside from the fact that sports are important, these policies have effected crime statistics, women's prisons, refuges etc.

Surely it's just being inclusive? I'm not a bigot.

Trans people should take part in sport in the category of their sex. That's inclusive.

This policy has meant young women's places on teams and podiums have been dashed. That's not inclusive.

We're discussing a woman in women's sport, I'm not sure why you think I believe men should be in women's sport? You really are confused, bless.

@RaindropsOnRosie

You seem to be a bit confused. LH is a transwoman. TW are not women.

So we are not discussing women in women's sport, as per your post. We are discussing TW in women's sport. Biological men in women's sport.

Your patronising post claiming that others are confused; it's you that's confused.

News flash - women don't have penises. LH has a penis.

Just thought...

The max T level for transwomen is twice that for women with DSD..

Couldn't semenya etc identity as trans women and therefore benefit from the higher max T?

Logically they should be able to.

In practice i BET the answer would be no. Just a feeling.

@BlackeyedSusan

1541 votes 98% yanbu

Ah, yes, Susan, but obviously those 1,510 YANBU voters are all really evil right-wing transphobes, possibly evangelical Christians to boot, getting their clueless little female brains into a terrible frenzy.

Alternatively, they're just pissed-off women who are sick of being gaslighted.

YANBU. It is wrong in every way.

This is very interesting in terms of showing that the rules the IOC came up with were nothing to do with s genuine think about fairness and only to do with making sure there was a way for males to compete which sounded sciencey but wasn't in any way fair:

29 July

'The IOC’s medical and science director, Dr Richard Budgett, said “everyone agrees that trans women are women.

While Budgett appeared to accept Hubbard had an advantage from going through male puberty, he stressed that inclusivity was an important factor too. “There are lots of aspects of physiology and anatomy, and the mental side, that contribute to an elite performance,. It’s very difficult to say, ‘yes, she has an advantage because she went through male puberty,’ when there’s so many other factors to take into account,” he said.

amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/29/ioc-praises-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-ahead-of-transgender-athletes-olympic-debut

Same bloke 30 July

'However, Budgett accepted that the 2015 guidelines were no longer backed by science. “I absolutely accept that, things move on,” he said. “At the time the 10 nanomoles per litre was set because we thought that was the lower level for men. We know now that they go down to seven and women can be higher as well. Agreeing on another number is almost impossible and possibly irrelevant. You can debate that endlessly.”

My asterisks.

And more

'There is some research, but it depends on whether you are coming from the view of inclusion as the first priority or absolute fairness to the nth degree being the priority,” he said. “If you don’t want to take any risks at all that anyone might have an advantage, then you just stop everybody. '

'“It may be the right thing to do in many sports, because it is at the most elite level in their case that they are concerned about safety. As you come down from that level you can start to prioritise inclusion more than safety.'

www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/30/ioc-admits-guidelines-for-transgender-athletes-are-not-fit-for-purpose

Here’s a useful graph illustrating permitted T-levels in athletes

Laurel Hubbard is a mediocre male weightlifter who has taken a place in the Olympics from an excellent female weightlifter.

If there was a 4x100m swimming Medley which was open sex (not specified as 2 XY and 2XX) do we think ANY country would put ANY women on the team? Of course not, it'd all be men.

So as soon as you allow XY to compete with women then eventually you'll get the same effect. Until there's no women's sport left.

Anyone competing against XX who is XY is a massive massive cheat and they know it too.

Testosterone is largely irrelevant anyway.
Male bodies have clear advantages over female bodies in terms of sports.
Testosterone is just 'give 'em the ol' razzle dazzle' to distract and confuse. Men cannot become women. Humans aren't clownfish. Men retain significant advantages over women in sport. Male and female categories exist for a reason. Trans women do not become women by surgery, hormones or wishful thinking.
Their bodies remain male. No matter how much or how little they tinker with them.
That's it.

Also Hubbard is twice the age of the other Olympians and has had an injury. It's not out of the realms of possibility that a very talented woman, whose trained all her life and is at the peak of her fitness beats a mediocre, older male.
Even if Hubbard comes last their inclusion is wrong.

This tweet has nailed it

twitter.com/talisman_tate/status/1419926810121445377?s=21

I'd take issue with the word 'other' in your title, OP.

Anyone who thinks women should just try harder against men is so incredibly hard of thinking that engaging with them feels like clubbing a baby seal….they have no clue what’s happening

Someone asked earlier about when did LH decide to transition. The answer is 2012, the IOC has allowed trans athletes since 2004.
Initially gender reassignment surgery was a requirement but this was dropped in 2015.

Causes me to question the whole ideology of comptitive sports.
At its worst is messy football- agression, division.

I am not a fan .
I know it is a love of many- but seems to fuel negative emotion.

YANBU

This really really pisses me off!!

Hate the player, not the game speak out

Another interesting graph.

Rosie what attributes do the majority of posters on Mumsnet , who are women, share with LH that makes us all women and just the same?

I'm interested in how you define women to include males?

Please explain.

LH is a cheating Male.

FluffyBattleKitten

Interesting.
I just feel the whole field is skewed. The organisers, the structure. I feel a huge desire to slap them all with a cold haddock.