To think Laurel Hubbard should not be competing against other women

[Belle82]

I know I am going to get ripped apart for this.

I have no problem with the transgender community, that is your life/body and I am not one to judge anyone else, do what makes you happy.

There is something fundamentally wrong about a person who is biologically a man competing against a woman in sport as significant as weightlifting.
I am not taking anything away from women weightlifters, however when competing in that sport, a person who was born a man will always have an unfair advantage over a woman.

I am all for equal rights but it seems political correctness has now put us in a position that we will only consider the equal rights of those in the transgender community. What happens to the equal rights of all the other women who have worked extremely hard to get to the olympics who should be competing against biological women.

There needs to be clearer cut criteria on entrance requirements to every sport, to give every person the equal rights they deserve.

My heart goes out to all the other women competing who I’m sure must be somewhat disheartened about their chances of success now they are competing against a biological man.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/29/ioc-praises-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-ahead-of-transgender-athletes-olympic-debut

They can identify as whatever the fuck they want, yes competing in sport with that gender makes no sense and it needs addressing but there's no need to misgender them just to get your kick in as per usual!!!

But that's the point, isn't it? People can identify how they like but when they enforce that on others we end up with situations like this, where a rubbish fat bloke says 'I'm a woman' and everyone (including the IOC) has to agree or we get told off for "misgendering" and being unkind. I don't give a shit what Laurel Hubbard identifies as - it shouldn't be relevant. He's not a woman but he stole a woman's place in the Olympics. He's just a cheat, and we need to be able to say that. It's not hate to speak the truth.

Couldn't semenya etc identity as trans women and therefore benefit from the higher max T?

I don't see why not, except I believe the athletics regulators have actually set the limits for both trans and DSD males in female sports at 5 nmol/l. They've not left that loophole open to Semenya - they lowered the trans limit shortly after tightening the DSD regulations.

The higher 10 nmol/l limit comes from the IOC, and applies to males in other female sports.

I'm not even convinced Hubbard believes Hubbard is a woman.
The only effort to present in any way different from a man is the long hair, which is certainly not unusual in men happy to be called men.
Hubbard's certainly retained their male sense of entitlement that's for sure.

Misgendering? Misgendering is when little girls think my son is a girl because of his long eyelashes and gorgeous hair.
Grown adults shouldn't need the validation of the entire world.
Or can we all demand the world to go along with fantasies now. Can I identify as a Victoria Secret Model and sashay my frumpy dumpy self down the runway in place of some beautiful girl whose place I've stolen?

Jesus wept.

You are 100% correct OP.

FluffyBattleKitten

Given that the 'new' definition of woman is.. not known/ no one definition/ that's no problem.

You can be a woman in the way that makes sense to you.

Definitions I've seen include (more or less accurate CBA to look up!)

'Every woman is a woman. Women are multifaceted, intergenerational, international. They are limitless, formless ... women are the world.”

'a woman is a person who is, or has been, presumed to adopt a passive role in sexual intercourse and a reproductive role in economic life.

And sorry about this one

'"Distilling the femaleness to its barest essentials -- an open mouth, an expectant asshole, blank, blank eyes."

He's just a cheat, and we need to be able to say that. It's not hate to speak the truth.

Yes, that sounds a bit like the overturned judgment in Maya Forstater's case. To paraphrase - you can in theory discuss the issues caused by people being male, but you can't actually say that they're male.

We saw a horrible example of that a few months back - one of the runners involved in a court case in the US managed to get a comment piece published in USA Today. That got rewritten shortly after it went up with the statement

“This column has been updated to reflect USA TODAY’s standards and style guidelines. We regret that hurtful language was used.”

What did they change? What was this hurtful language? They removed all her references to the people she was competing with being "male", changing it to "transgender".

Worst example of editing being this paragraph:

That’s because males have massive physical advantages. Their bodies are simply bigger and stronger on average than female bodies. It’s obvious to every single girl on the track.

That became:

Their bodies are simply bigger and stronger on average. It’s obvious to other girls on the track.

That even changes what "their" was referring to (it becomes the "two transgender athletes").

She never once used the word "transgender" herself, only using "male". Because she's not complaining about them being transgender, she's complaining about them being male. That's the point.

twitter.com/ChristianaADF/status/1397610845761425410

Oh I did look them up in the end couldn't remember

@Scout2016

YANBU, and neither should Chelsea Chelsea Wolfe or Stephanie Barrett.

I saw on the official Olympics website that Barrett competed for Canada in the Women's Archery I couldn't find Wolfe.

Wolfe was a reserve for the US team, didn't actually compete.

Ah thanks, not that it matters, they still took away places from women.

To go back to the young woman who initially lost her place, presumably to Hubbard. Am I right in thinking that the IOC made an exception for her after it was noticed she'd been set / shoved aside, and allocated an additional place? If so, why on earth would the IOC do that unless they knew that it wasn't fair? Its pretty much an admission that they know they've got it wrong, or they wouldn't have done it, would they?

Or rather, not "noticed" as such, just the protests became uncomfortable to them and they thought they'd be able to "buy us off"?

I haven't seen this link posted yet - boysvswomen.com/#/.

It's quite a stark illustration of how athletic teenage boys can easily beat women's world records.

The IOC have got themselves into a right pickle.

The constant press about athletes with DSDs and now this.
They are also I'm fairly sure a famously sexist org? Or were in the not so distant past.

I think they are lining up that doc to take all the flack. He is not the sole decision maker but others are invisible.

Anyway now they've stated openly that-

With trans people the starting point was that needed to be able to compete in the category they preferred. This is obviously more of a tricky issue for transwomen.

So they decided that testosterone was all that mattered (can be measured, altered).

Set it at max 10 for transwomen. Because that was at the lower range of normal for men. (?!). And despite the fact that's something like 4 or 5 times the upper end of normal for even elite sportswomen.
So not to do with fairness at all. Just picking a number that men could achieve without probably too much trouble. And it sounded sciencey.

Now they are saying oh hey the numbers look not right. Men can go down lower and women higher. (Note no mention of normal range or how defining woman).

I think they are going to push the women's right up. So semenya etc can compete and that headache goes away.

The statement that the numbers aren't important anyway is concerning.

I wonder if they are going to say they overlap. And what that will mean for the direction they take.

No, YANBU, but a very vocal minority think you are absolutely BU and it is their ludicrous tune to which everyone with some clout seems to dance. Erase women's rights and women's hard won gains because a biological man says so.

@HaroldMeeker

To go back to the young woman who initially lost her place, presumably to Hubbard. Am I right in thinking that the IOC made an exception for her after it was noticed she'd been set / shoved aside, and allocated an additional place? If so, why on earth would the IOC do that unless they knew that it wasn't fair? Its pretty much an admission that they know they've got it wrong, or they wouldn't have done it, would they?

The IOC has a number of wild cards to issue to under represented states. One of those was given to Nini, probably because of the backlash they hadn't expected. While being great for her, that was a wild card that should have gone to another woman if LH wasn't a cheat who took a woman's place.

Yes, they gave the original girl a discretionary place, but that meant an 18 year old athlete from Nauru called Roviel Detenamo didn't get that discretionary place (according to Janice Turner in the Times today).

Nauru is the smallest country in the IOC, only joining in 1996, and having their first female athlete in 2000.

Everyone who thinks this is inclusive is seriously deluded.

2000: Lauren Jeska 'transitions' and takes up fell-running
2010-12 Jeska wins numerous women's events including the 2012 British Fell Running Championships
2017: Jeska is jailed for the attempted murder of a coach who asked to see Jeska's hormone levels

Stabbed the official in the head and neck and injured two others who tried to intervene. Sentenced to 18 years. In a women’s prison.

@TurquoiseBaubles

Yes, they gave the original girl a discretionary place, but that meant an 18 year old athlete from Nauru called Roviel Detenamo didn't get that discretionary place (according to Janice Turner in the Times today).

Nauru is the smallest country in the IOC, only joining in 1996, and having their first female athlete in 2000.

Everyone who thinks this is inclusive is seriously deluded.

Ah, so it was just about getting uppity women to shut up and noit an admission of unfairness - and still a female missed out. What a load of cobblers. Thanks for clarifying. Pity they didn't remove one of the discretionary places from the men's categories. Imagine the howls if they'd done that.

@Rainy365

*2000: Lauren Jeska 'transitions' and takes up fell-running 2010-12 Jeska wins numerous women's events including the 2012 British Fell Running Championships 2017: Jeska is jailed for the attempted murder of a coach who asked to see Jeska's hormone levels*

Stabbed the official in the head and neck and injured two others who tried to intervene. Sentenced to 18 years. In a women’s prison.

Jesus fucking Christ.

I think all this has gone- given that the vast majority of things are run by men.

Oh look. This group of males want to be non men. Oh wow that's s big deal. To do that they must feel really strongly. And know how much shit some men will give them.

That's a small number of males would want to be a non man. And all that shit from men. How can we help them?

Oh hi various lobby groups. Yep it's terrible.

Ok they can go with the other non men. No skin of our noses.

(Zero thought at all of impact on existing non men. They are concerned with these males- because in basic terms- bros before hos).

Laws rules etc etc changed. This is great! We are v progressive. What a great bunch of guys we are. Flexible and kind.

Then things they have put in start getting public. Including sports.

Oh shit the other non men are women! God you always get a few who just stir the pot. Man haters. Awful awful people. Usually the ugly hairy ones. FFS.

Ok this does look a bit iffy. Erm. Well. What can we do to keep these non men happy. And get the female non men to shut up.

The various methods tried by loads of orgs have been laughable. They can't even be arsed to put anything that even sounds plausible together. That's what they think of women.

Hmm can you tell which one of these is the trans woman ? Totally fair that those women should be expected to compete against them...

I hope Laurel Hubbard breaks every women's weight lifting record on Monday. By miles. Then maybe everyone will see the emperor in their new clothes.

Pictures say a lot.

The response is always-

It's misogyny to judge a woman's appearance
Tall/ strong etc women exist. Are they not women?

Etc etc.

It's so tedious.

@Sonarl

So LH is competing at 19.50 Tokyo time this Monday 2nd August which is 11.50am this Monday here right?

I think it would be Tues am for the UK.