To think Laurel Hubbard should not be competing against other women

[Belle82]

I know I am going to get ripped apart for this.

I have no problem with the transgender community, that is your life/body and I am not one to judge anyone else, do what makes you happy.

There is something fundamentally wrong about a person who is biologically a man competing against a woman in sport as significant as weightlifting.
I am not taking anything away from women weightlifters, however when competing in that sport, a person who was born a man will always have an unfair advantage over a woman.

I am all for equal rights but it seems political correctness has now put us in a position that we will only consider the equal rights of those in the transgender community. What happens to the equal rights of all the other women who have worked extremely hard to get to the olympics who should be competing against biological women.

There needs to be clearer cut criteria on entrance requirements to every sport, to give every person the equal rights they deserve.

My heart goes out to all the other women competing who I’m sure must be somewhat disheartened about their chances of success now they are competing against a biological man.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/29/ioc-praises-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-ahead-of-transgender-athletes-olympic-debut

'I thought, you could allow transwomen to compete in the male category with a commitment not to bully them or misgender them whilst the competition takes place.'

One of the regular arguments about transwomen being in all previously female things is because it's dangerous for them with males.

I have no doubt that men can be horrible / violent etc to transwomen.

However.

1. This is a problem with men not being inclusive. Picking on those they see as different or weak etc. This causes problems for vast amounts of people everywhere day in day out. Women and girls are well aware of it. So it would be brilliant if the focus was on men to get them to, to coin a phrase, 'be kind'.

This has not to my knowledge EVER been raised as an action for the lobbying, charity groups etc I have seen that work for trans rights. Why not? Is the question.

1. Loads of men get shit from other men. Varies around the world etc but eg. Men perceived as gay, men with disabilities, men who seem peculiar or different, men of other races... Etc etc.

What about them? Don't they need respite/ protection too?

1. Men bullying each other at the Olympics feels unlikely. They are hardcore lifelong athletes. That is their focus. Others at the Olympics- an experience that very few have- are there on exceptional physical merit as well. I also would imagine that bullying other competitors would be a massive no no - IOC would react fast- otherwise reputational damage.

So I don't understand that post.

Men who are at risk (in general life) from other men should work together to make men less horrible. There's no justification for saying ok yeah go with the women.

@Spodge

YANBU.

And where does it end? What happens when the equivalent of Hubbard wants to enter a boxing match?

It has already happened, 2014 in women's mixed martial arts, the male fighter caused serious injuries in minutes,

(extract)
"Fallon Fox, the first MMA fighter to come out as transgender, once fractured the skull of her opponent in an MMA fight in 2014.

Fox was challenging Tamikka Brents at CCCW (Capital City Cage Wars) event, where the 45-year-old fighter brutally defeated her American opponent. The fight lasted just over two minutes after the referee was forced to halt the contest.

Brents received seven staples to her head, and also suffered a concussion. She was overpowered by Fox to an extent that even the orbital bone inside her skull was fractured." (continues)

Brents later went on to claim that Fox's grip and strength was different from other women she had fought.

“I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not because I’m not a doctor. I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right. Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn’t move at all in Fox’s clinch," (continues)
www.sportskeeda.com/mma/news-when-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-broke-opponent-s-skull-mma-fight

Are there any other transgender participants in the Olympics?

@Guineapigbridge

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Hubbard pulls out. She's actually a very quiet and thoughtful individual who is under a hell of a lot of pressure. It's the IOC who should be held to account for this mess, not her.

Not thoughtful enough though. Where is the honour in this?

I also love being a middle aged woman!

Street harrassment etc off a cliff.

Men you work with etc not clouded by sex stuff (not all obv but I'm treated with much more respect/ seriously than when I was younger).

Women who are getting older often, IME. Become much more comfortable with challenging any shit. To us or to younger women etc. At work certainly. I also am way more comfy stepping in the few times I have to help a young woman being harassed on the street etc.

As you get older and older you just give less and less of a shit about behaving the ways that are pushed/ and that tbf many including me go along with to an extent when younger.

And THAT is a big part of the reason that in general middle aged and older women are denigrated so constantly.

Because we are DANGEROUS. We have lived and had experiences that often lead to a thinking that things are... Not great for girls and women s lot of the time.

So we say the unsayable. And we do it in PUBLIC while being nearly or actually outside our reproductive years.

We aren't sexy young things. Often pretty much invisible to men in public (compared to when young). We are clear eyed. We are pissed off. And with the male gaze reduced and experience behind us we are waay more confident.

(Massive generalisation obv!).

No one aspires to be an older woman. But it's fucking great. The reason it's pushed that we're all sorts of shitty stereotypes is because men in general find us discomforting, even threatening.

@Bitofachinwag

Are there any other transgender participants in the Olympics?

Stephanie Barrett - archery. I know nothing about archery, but I think it’s one sport where age doesn’t matter so much. But biological differences do matter (longer arms, muscle twitch etc).

The person Stephanie beat to obtain the their place was in her 40’s. Can’t imagine how gutting that would be.

Stephanie could also take place in the mixed archery team - so basically two male physiques competing.

They didn’t do well, but that’s beside the point. Yet another place taken from a woman in a sport where it’s possible for slightly older women to still compete.

This

@R0wantrees. @FluffyBattleKitten

Crikey. I feel sick. But not surprised at the outcome.

@Bitofachinwag

Are there any other transgender participants in the Olympics?

I was trying to look into this.

My suspicion is that as it's v personal. There is unlikely to be any obligation to go public, as it were.
I couldn't find anything on IOC website.
I reckon as long as the IOC etc know so they can do their tests, s trans person wouldn't have to go public unless they wanted to.

Hannah Mouncey was not picked because she insisted on sharing both changing room and showers with the team. A third space was offered but rejected.

I can confirm that yes, I was left out of the team for the World Championships because there was a group of players within the team, supported by the team manager, who did not want me showering or using the change rooms before or after the game. Interview with Hannah in the Star

@NiceGerbil Right, so transwomen don’t want to use male toilets because they might come to harm. I can sort of see how they might get there.

But if IOC turned round and said right, you can compete, we’ll make you as welcome as we possibly can into the male category even though you are transwomen…I suspect that there wouldn’t be much take-up. (This is setting aside the issue that medical male-to-female transition tends to make one less competitive sports-wise). If Laurel was allowed to compete with the men, for example. (Yes I do realise she wouldn’t qualify for the Olympics.)

It’s more of a thought experiment than a suggestion.

There was a Canadian in the archery.

A couple of non-binary identities in the BMX and the football (both female).

The closest to Hubbard is in the Paralympics where another surprisingly old and fairly recently transitioned athlete is producing times that are streets ahead of the competition (sight impaired runner).

*As you get older and older you just give less and less of a shit about behaving the ways that are pushed/ and that tbf many including me go along with to an extent when younger.

And THAT is a big part of the reason that in general middle aged and older women are denigrated so constantly.

Because we are DANGEROUS. We have lived and had experiences that often lead to a thinking that things are... Not great for girls and women s lot of the time.

So we say the unsayable. And we do it in PUBLIC while being nearly or actually outside our reproductive years.

We aren't sexy young things. Often pretty much invisible to men in public (compared to when young). We are clear eyed. We are pissed off. And with the male gaze reduced and experience behind us we are waay more confident.

(Massive generalisation obv!).

No one aspires to be an older woman. But it's fucking great. The reason it's pushed that we're all sorts of shitty stereotypes is because men in general find us discomforting, even threatening.*

I love this - agree 100%.
It is fucking great being in my 50s.

@Greencoatblue Thanks for the link. I hadn't seen that video before or heard of the incident. The Spanish athlete showed such sportsmanship. Very admirable.

@NiceGerbil Right, so transwomen don’t want to use male toilets because they might come to harm. I can sort of see how they might get there.

But if IOC turned round and said right, you can compete, we’ll make you as welcome as we possibly can into the male category even though you are transwomen…I suspect that there wouldn’t be much take-up. (This is setting aside the issue that medical male-to-female transition tends to make one less competitive sports-wise). If Laurel was allowed to compete with the men, for example. (Yes I do realise she wouldn’t qualify for the Olympics.)

It’s more of a thought experiment than a suggestion.

@Guineapigbridge

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Hubbard pulls out. She's actually a very quiet and thoughtful individual who is under a hell of a lot of pressure. It's the IOC who should be held to account for this mess, not her.

Not thoughtful enough.

'I saw someone suggest on Twitter that the other weightlifters deliberately fault all their lifts leaving Hubbard to win Gold. Another option would be for the other weightlifters to just not come to the platform, they would get timed out after a minute or two.

Would be a powerful statement of protest, if too much to ask of the athletes. Also the IOC takes a dim view of anything deemed political so there might be repucussions for anyone involved in such a stunt. But still, would be quite the statement.'

Too big an ask.
Trained for years. Worked their guts out. Competed up the ranks. Made the Olympics! No, I think that's too much even to think of asking.

They would likely, if they did this. Ruin their careers. Get massive amounts of threats etc. Possibly depending on laws at home, get in real trouble.

More retired elite sportspeople, both men and women, need to take s stand.

So to sum up:
Transwomen are welcome to play in their own sex' category. This would be inclusion.

Transwomen in the woman's category excludes women

Transwomen in the women's category is a safety concern

The criteria transwomen have to meet is arbitrary and doesn't put them on an even keel

Trans policies are are affecting women everywhere, not just sports.

Have I missed anything?

@Belle82www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPmdSxt1V-Y”

Thank you for posting that inspiring video.

'She's actually a very quiet and thoughtful individual who is under a hell of a lot of pressure.'

What does quiet and thoughtful actually mean? Is it supposed to equate to shy/ not wanting attention?

Because no individual who is quiet and doesn't want attention would take the route Hubbard has.

Contraversial since starting to compete against women.
Will be under no illusions about the level of controversy.
Etc.

Going to the Olympics- a globally viewed incredibly famous huge international event- is not the action of a reticent person.

No one needs to go to the Olympics. LH has competed in loads of other less known competitions and got medals. And seen the reaction to them on podium gold with much younger women pushed down.

No sorry not buying it.

LH could and would only do this if they have the skin of a rhino and entitlement. IMO.

I think there are additional issues about over medicalisation of teenagers and even younger children too Fluffy

I read Janice Turner’s excellent article in yesterday’s Times. I am not sure if anyone on the tread has shared it, but unfortunately I can’t.

She wrote that in Samoa they have a third gender- men who like to present themselves as more female than male - openly accepted in their society and often working in women’s jobs where their extra strength is valued. But, in sports they join in with other men.

@NiceGerbil It would generate a lot of press coverage though.

Great poll OP. Undeniable.

Save women’s Sports!!!

savewomenssports.com/