To think WHO are trying to commit organisational suicide? They’ve said that women of childbearing age should not drink alcohol AT ALL.

[RickiTarr]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/16/accused-sexism-saying-women-childbearing-age-should-not-drink/

Doh, meant to say all my mother’s pregnancies were attended in North London.

Well that's going to cause a bit of an upset to certain "women" of child bearing age isn't it? TWAW except when they want a drink eh?

Oh certain people are masters at picking and choosing already.

Children with FAS AFAIK have mothers who are drinking very heavily through pregnancy.

Alcoholics.

The idea that women who do it don't care. May be true of some. But in general it's a serious addiction. There are often other issues I would imagine.

Having better addiction services would be better than just saying ok women can't drink at all.

FASD is much less well defined and essentially unproven. A lot of things have been bundled up into oh probably the woman's fault. The estimates on children impacted vary massively.

It's always been blame the mother for anything to do with children. Don't look at environment, the dad etc. And controlling women is still rife everywhere.

As bpas said there is no evidence to show that light to moderate drinking in pregnancy causes any issues.

I still can't believe they wrote that. Anyone know if they have reacted to the criticism?

@NiceGerbil

Children with FAS AFAIK have mothers who are drinking very heavily through pregnancy.

Alcoholics.

The idea that women who do it don't care. May be true of some. But in general it's a serious addiction. There are often other issues I would imagine.

Having better addiction services would be better than just saying ok women can't drink at all.

FASD is much less well defined and essentially unproven. A lot of things have been bundled up into oh probably the woman's fault. The estimates on children impacted vary massively.

It's always been blame the mother for anything to do with children. Don't look at environment, the dad etc. And controlling women is still rife everywhere.

As bpas said there is no evidence to show that light to moderate drinking in pregnancy causes any issues.

I still can't believe they wrote that. Anyone know if they have reacted to the criticism?

Not necessarily, although usually. My dear friend, Amanda, found out that she was pregnant at 11 weeks and quit drinking entirely. Nor did she drink more than a drink or two a night and not EVERY night. Her second son has FAK. While that may not be the norm, it is certainly worth considering.

That's a drink or two a night 4-6 nights a week BEFORE she found out.

This is beyond ridiculous considering alcohol also affects male fertility! No one is walking around saying men should drink less at the age of being able to conceive a child?

What's FAK?

this?

'PTK2 protein tyrosine kinase 2 (PTK2), also known as focal adhesion kinase (FAK), is a protein that, in humans, is encoded by the PTK2 gene.[4] PTK2 is a focal adhesion-associated protein kinase involved in cellular adhesion (how cells stick to each other and their surroundings) and spreading processes (how cells move around).[5] It has been shown that when FAK was blocked, breast cancer cells became less metastatic due to decreased mobility'

@Mamanyt

That's a drink or two a night 4-6 nights a week BEFORE she found out.

You see this is really unhelpful.

There are regular threads on here with women thinking they should abort their wanted baby as they had a drink or 2 when pregnant.

That's not good is it.

Loads of women don't know they're pregnant until they're down the line a bit. Do you support the WHO things?

In the ?70s women were advised to drink a bottle of stout every day for the iron.

I've read that in medieval London very weak beer was drunk instead of water because the water was filthy.

If a small amount of alcohol causes...? Did you mean FAS? then how has the human race got by?

Have you considered the possibility that you friend is not being entirely honest.

Certainly I know women who have been out on the lash when they didn't know they were pregnant and their kids are fine.

In the end. What do you actually want DONE about this? How would you address it?

I've only just seen that they say it should be banned for all women of childbearing age! wtf! thought they said pregnant women. While FAS is hugely damaging, I'm a bit uncomfortable with it being banned for pregnant women.

But all women 18-50? Are they mad?!

No not mad.

Just all of the many people and committees that wrote and reviewed the draft doc are either misogynists, or the culture there is such that people are afraid to challenge things.

@colouringindoors

I've only just seen that they say it should be banned for all women of childbearing age! wtf! thought they said pregnant women. While FAS is hugely damaging, I'm a bit uncomfortable with it being banned for pregnant women.

But all women 18-50? Are they mad?!

It's not even 18 to 50, its beyond that. I started drinking at about 15, some children are given watered down wine from a young age ( this has possibly died out now but was common in Italy and similar in the 80s) so from 11 or 12 when ever menarche happens to menopause. I'm over 50 and still capable of getting pregnant. This could go on another several years yet. Some women never actually get past peri menopause and therefore could never drink. Stupid sentence to put in. All those people probably active in writing this and no one thought to challenge it.

Or they challenged it and failed...

@GoingGently

Or they challenged it and failed...

The saving grace is that WHO has no authority to do more than recommend. And recommending things like this is not going to help their reputation world-wide. They do some wonderful work, but they also REALLY miss the mark sometimes.

Most countries know that this would be an exercise in futility. They will keep recommending that pregnant women do not drink, and leave the rest of this idiotic stance to die a natural death.

Thing is it's a gift to certain states in the USA and other countries around the world where women can be prosecuted for doing things in pregnancy that harm their baby.

These are the same places where abortion is constantly under attack or banned, coincidentally.

The WHO are very well respected by governments etc and you often see WHO referenced when there are changes to policy etc.

The push for equal rights from conception is also being pushed strongly. In places where it is/ was in place it can have massive consequences for women.

Yes it's s draft but the fact the WHO wrote it down and put it out there indicates that they think it's a good idea, iyswim, even if they do remove it.

amp.theguardian.com/society/2016/may/05/hospitals-pregnancy-abortion-reproductive-healthcare-catholic-rules-report

'The report finds that one out of every six beds in the country’s acute care hospitals is in a hospital with Catholic affiliations and that Catholic hospitals make up 15%, or 548, of the country’s hospitals'

'Many public health advocates regard this trend with alarm. At Catholic hospitals, all medical staff must follow a set of rules set out by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops that bar abortion and any products or procedures to induce sterility, such as emergency contraception or tubal ligations. Thursday’s report is the ACLU and MergerWatch’s latest attempt to warn that the rules may be putting critical reproductive healthcare out of reach for entire communities, even when in some cases it risks the lives of women.'

The WHO statement essentially says that the rights of the foetus should be MORE important than the woman's.

Because all women, for most of their lives, should be prevented from consuming alcohol. To protect any possible embryo/ foetus. And it applies even if the woman uses contraception, don't want children and would have an abortion (assuming available). Presumably on the basis that contraception can fail and women can be raped.

Thinking about it. Where abortion is banned/ highly restricted/ made very hard to get. Then that blanket ban on alcohol makes more sense.

The more I think about it the more troubling it is.

The fact is that criminalising women who have done things that harmed their child happens in more than one country.

These are the areas where abortion is highly restricted or banned.

They want to control women already.

FASD as posted upthread has no solid diagnostic criteria. The CDC says:

'A person with an FASD might have:

Low body weight
Poor coordination
Hyperactive behavior
Difficulty with attention
Poor memory
Difficulty in school (especially with math)
Learning disabilities
Speech and language delays
Intellectual disability or low IQ
Poor reasoning and judgment skills
Sleep and sucking problems as a baby
Vision or hearing problems
Problems with the heart, kidneys, or bones
Shorter-than-average height
Small head size
Abnormal facial features, such as a smooth ridge between the nose and upper lip (this ridge is called the philtrum)'

So worse case scenario.

The counties and areas that imprison/ no abortion etc.

Can say based on a very very wide range of things.

That the mother is to blame. And prosecute her.

And you can't prove you haven't had a drink through your whole pregnancy.

Sounds extreme but there are women in prison for life for having miscarriages (accused of self inducing abortion).

The WHO statement essentially says that the rights of the foetus should be MORE important than the woman's.

Because all women, for most of their lives, should be prevented from consuming alcohol.

That’s it in a nutshell.

My mind keeps drifting back to it too. Really disturbing, but I do love BPAS more than ever after this week.

In short. The consequences for women in some parts of the would could be incredibly severe.

Because of one line. That supports their whole view of women when it comes to babies.

@NiceGerbil

In short. The consequences for women in some parts of the would could be incredibly severe.

Because of one line. That supports their whole view of women when it comes to babies.

Which includes parts of the so called “developed” world so god help us.

A screenshot via text from one of my dds in response to a link to the original WHO source accompanied with #Handmaidstale.
They think I’m an irrelevant bigot in the other issue so thanks WHO for at least giving us some common ground.

@Etinox

A screenshot via text from one of my dds in response to a link to the original WHO source accompanied with #Handmaidstale. They think I’m an irrelevant bigot in the other issue so thanks WHO for at least giving us some common ground.

Superb response!