Sam Smith coming out as non-binary - help me understand!

[namechangeblah2019]

Name changed for this in case it gets messy.

I don't know if you've seen in the news but the singer Sam Smith came out as non-binary recently and has now asked that people use they/them pronouns with regard to them.

Absolutely not a problem with using those pronouns - I'm not a fan of theirs particularly so it's unlikely that they'll be cropping up that much in conversation anyway!

But - and I promise I am not being obtuse here, I am just old and slow but I am willing to learn - what exactly is non-binary? I just can't wrap my head around it. Surely the existence of non-binariness as a concept positions it as an alternative to an existing binary (i.e. men being macho and loving beer, women being all pink and girly and love wine) which I thought we all got over (or are meant to be getting over - sadly some people are very slow on the uptake!) anyway?

If I put on a pair of trousers or drink a pint or watch football I don't feel any less like a woman. I still feel like namechangeblah2019. How can you both refute the existence of a gender binary but also claim to be outside of it?

Please be kind to me - as I say I'm not implying they are wrong at all and if that is how they feel most comfortable being referred to then good on them and we should all respect that! I just want to learn as I currently feel like a right old fogey

It's a great way to sell records and gain attention.

It's damaging to women when men claim to be gender fluid or non binary. Just look at Philip 'Pips' Bunce, who stole a woman's prize. Meiocre men must see this and have a light bulb moment. Being 'speshial' is a real career boost.

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/gender-fluid-exec-named-on-list-of-top-100-women-in-business-a3942896.html

"And that’s why MOST women go crazy over newborns"

Yeah. I didn't. Not even my own newborns. I was shattered and bleeding and they didn't cry straight away and the silence was terrifying and I was in pain and I looked down at this screwed up angry little face and thought OMG, someone help me....

I’m with unacorda - if you say you’re neither female or male,call yourself it. They is a plural.

I was a bit at going out to lunch yesterday in a fairly middle of the road food chain to find it covered in rainbow flags to celebrate the local Pride event. Putting one in my drink was a step too far for me.

I'm so over all this blatant sexuality/gender shit in people's faces. It's attention seeking, nothing more.

Soon I’ll be having this conversation with my daughter:

Sorry love, I know you wanted a doll for your birthday but in order to fit in with society I got you a car... girls can like cars too you know. And by the way I gave that pink top to your brother, it was far too feminine for a girl and now your brother is “non binary” I thought “they” would like it. We can’t have next door saying we are “transphobic” can we dear. We had better go love, if we are to catch daddy winning the “women’s race” at the pool!

@CoinOperatedBoy well that’s probably a better reaction than looking down at mine. “Who the hell are you and where is my bastard tea and toast I’m starving!”

1. Look up penguins and other species where the males often look after the young. I spent ages yesterday watching a beautiful male great-crested grebe grooming a young one then giving for fish and feeding it while it complained loudly.

Funny you say this as one of the zoos (might be London zoo) have declared their new penguin chick to be non binary. They don’t want it growing up with gender stereotypes or something. Apparently penguins share the chick raising, etc which is great. But why the zoo can’t just say that male penguins do chick rearing I have no idea. Instead they partake in “woke” bollocks gender stereotypes. Oh if a male helps raise children they can’t possibly be a man so therefore our penguins are non binary. I could weep.

@emilybrontescorsett I could use my erect penis to hang the towel over to make sure each side is an equal length.

Trimummy3, do you really think people on here are arguing that men should compete in women’s sports, single sex spaces should be abolished, and that there are no biologicL differences between the sexes?

You are either very new or extremely obtuse (or both) if so. It’s precisely the opposite of what most women on here who discuss it think. I suggest some remedial reading of the feminist chat board.

Blah blah blah and seahorses etc. My point is animals are not bloody influenced by society. They just “be” whatever their genes make them. And they don’t switch or flit between them all.

I now reject the rainbow. If I see a rainbow-decked logo on twitter - I block them. I won’t give my business to companies who trumpet rainbows. It is a badly thought out marketing strategy and where exactly the hell were they 10, 20, 30 years ago? Where are they for women NOW?

It has become a deeply misogynistic movement. And I used to really like (actual) rainbows. Hey I’m a kid of the 70, it was all rainbows back then!

penguin

Apparently they don’t want to assign it a gender at birth.

How about observing a biological/scientific fact at birth?

By going along with the Sam smiths of the world, you are waving goodbye to women only spaces I’m afraid

@ssd thanks for the reassurance. Still not going to though. My point is who gives a shit about some bloke ( who I've not heard of but then I am 61 and totally out of touch with 'celebs') saying they consider themselves genderless? ffs. . However I applaud the OP who seems to want to understand what non binary means ( and I'm not been sarcastic or patronising which I was when I asked who SS was)

Female lions also kill and eat their young, if they come across a better male partner with whom they can mate with.make
There is a bird ( sorry can't remember it's name) where the male runs around frantically tidying its home in order to attract a female. It then does a nice dance for her to encourage her to choose him.

Haven't RTFT but my opinion is that he didn't think he was selling enough albums and so needed to be as relevant as possible and get in the papers more.

"Blah blah blah and seahorses etc. My point is animals are not bloody influenced by society. They just “be” whatever their genes make them. And they don’t switch or flit between them all."

No one here has said they are, have they?

I think you're having a different debate to the rest of us.

I feel the need to visit the zoo.

Aw cute baby penguin! What is it?
Non-binary, penguined-ID creature
Oh. Interesting. Does it know or care? What SEX is it? Because if you don’t know you need to rethink your career in animal husbandry.

I haven't rtft. Really not sorry, just want to address the op @namechangeblah2019

The problem with 'non binary' is that for women this still means chopping your breasts off or at the very least binding, which is just as damaging to breast tissue and the rib cage, breathing etc.

At first I thought it was relatively harmless but it's not.

The men just wear a bit of make up, heels and eschew toxic masculinity. Basically Prince. Are they lining up to chop off their dicks? Nope.

I'm seeing it as yet another toxic patriarchal tool that is actively harming young women and the idea of 'woman' and 'women' today.

In some ways, the way that women are objectified and used for the penis through 'sex work' and porn, I'm not surprised they wish to distance themselves from being a woman.

If breastfeeding - the true purpose of breasts - was taught in schools and more openly talked about And not shamed, do wonder if this would go some way to helping but this will take decades to undo now.

But what fucking hope do we have if even lactation consultations who write books on breasts for teens include mastectomies for trans men but not talk about cancer? Her reasoning being that this would scare young girls further about their breasts...

www.amazon.co.uk/Breast-Book-puberty-difference-breasts/dp/1780664753

Non binary for some women is scarily like remaining a child, which unnerves me hugely in terms of who might find this attractive:

Lachlan Watson, an actress on Sabrina:

www.refinery29.com/en-gb/2019/05/234065/lachlan-watson-top-surgery-scar-interview

"who I've not heard of but then I am 61 and totally out of touch with 'celebs'"

I'd say 61 is pretty much Sam's target audience.

At what point are we allowed to say "it's a bloody penguin, mate, it doesn't care what anyone thinks it's gender is"?

If you ever need either a good laugh or to weep at the depths of human stupidity find one of the Twitter threads about the evils of misgendering your pet.

pronouns being sex/gender based simply make life a lot easier
In my first language pronouns are gender neutral. I don't feel like it is missing in the language and it makes anything more difficult. I do agree that they/them is a bit clumsy. In Swedish they came up with a new pronoun that can be used by non binaries, situations where gender is unknown or unnecessary. I'd like this solution. It would also help with subconscious bias based on gender.

I'm no way expert on this subject, but I do think that it is not as simple as being a woman who likes blue then you could idntify as non binary. I would also disagree with that people don't feel gender. I think we do but when the gender is aligned with the sex we were assigned at birth it doesn't feel like anything since biology doesn't send any signals. If nobody felt gender then the need for these labels wouldn't exist.

This whole thing about wether this is biological or societal or both would be interesting to know. They have been so ingrained that it's at this point similar to chicken or egg argument.

There is a recent book that debunks the idea of a male/female brain

www.theguardian.com/science/2019/feb/24/meet-the-neuroscientist-shattering-the-myth-of-the-gendered-brain-gina-rippon

"The idea of the male brain and the female brain suggests that each is a characteristically homogenous thing and that whoever has got a male brain, say, will have the same kind of aptitudes, preferences and personalities as everyone else with that ‘type’ of brain. We now know that is not the case. We are at the point where we need to say, ‘Forget the male and female brain; it’s a distraction, it’s inaccurate.’ It’s possibly harmful, too, because it’s used as a hook to say, well, there’s no point girls doing science because they haven’t got a science brain, or boys shouldn’t be emotional or should want to lead.”

"Oh. Interesting. Does it know or care? What SEX is it? Because if you don’t know you need to rethink your career in animal husbandry."

How dare you foist a gender ID on that poor innocent penguin.

It has become a deeply misogynistic movement.

You fucking betcha.