Sam Smith coming out as non-binary - help me understand!

[namechangeblah2019]

Name changed for this in case it gets messy.

I don't know if you've seen in the news but the singer Sam Smith came out as non-binary recently and has now asked that people use they/them pronouns with regard to them.

Absolutely not a problem with using those pronouns - I'm not a fan of theirs particularly so it's unlikely that they'll be cropping up that much in conversation anyway!

But - and I promise I am not being obtuse here, I am just old and slow but I am willing to learn - what exactly is non-binary? I just can't wrap my head around it. Surely the existence of non-binariness as a concept positions it as an alternative to an existing binary (i.e. men being macho and loving beer, women being all pink and girly and love wine) which I thought we all got over (or are meant to be getting over - sadly some people are very slow on the uptake!) anyway?

If I put on a pair of trousers or drink a pint or watch football I don't feel any less like a woman. I still feel like namechangeblah2019. How can you both refute the existence of a gender binary but also claim to be outside of it?

Please be kind to me - as I say I'm not implying they are wrong at all and if that is how they feel most comfortable being referred to then good on them and we should all respect that! I just want to learn as I currently feel like a right old fogey

Sam Smith can call me whatever phobic he likes, I'm still not sharing a changing room with him, or anyone else with a penis.

By the way Sam Smith is not and never will be David Bowie, Marc Bolan, Gary Numan, Annie Lennox, Susie Soux or any other great and ground breaking artist.

I suppose he has to get attention somehow. He is a mediocre, moany , bland, non descript singer. A person you would pass on the street without registering.
This "I have sex with men and women," has been done to death by far more interesting characters than him ( or it) .

So do other animals get influenced by social media, adverts etc? Because certain species have females stay at home with babies whilst the males go hunting?

It’s biology!!!!! You can’t change it!

It's a load of attention seeking pretentious twaddle.

@8by8 has it perfectly.

I saw the news article and a, didn't know who he is; and b, thought it was a total non-story. Even if HMQ decided she was non-binary I wouldn't consider it newsworthy. He, she, they. Who gives a shit.

Does my fucking head in all this ooooh look at me, I'm so speshul shit.

He doesn't have sex with men and women though. He's gay. Not sure how you're meant to indicate that if you're insisting that you personally do not have a "gender".

Um, trimummy, adults were in the study. Brains alter with experiences in life. Girls get rewarded for showing caring behaviour around dolls and babies - attention, praise, teaching. People treat differently sexed babies differently from day 1. By the time they are 2 they have had 2 solid years of it.

"And that’s why MOST women go crazy over newborns"

Do they though? I don't know any women who go crazy over newborns.

Besides that, how on earth can you prove that's not socially conditioned. Women are told, from when they are very young, that looking after babies is THEIR job, THEIR responsibility.

I'd say women apparently liking babies more than men do is a perfect example of social conditioning.

No one wants to retain sex-based spaces more than me. I am 100% all for it. But that is based on my body, not on my desire to coo over babies and put on lipstick together.

57Serin, you are on the windup, right? Your kid said they seem OK and you think teenagers are buying into this they crap?? Don't be so daft. People have been saying they seem OK for about a trillion years.

@TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross 🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

@gingersausage no but surely if I google the name I'm just feeding into this person's desire for publicity? Which is surely why this announcement. And genuinely, never heard of them before.

1. It is already considered transphobic to defend single sex spaces. Feminists are putting a lot of effort into doing so nonetheless precisely because single sex does not, and should not, mean ‘single gender’. Having you been living in a cupboard for the past three years or so?

1. Look up penguins and other species where the males often look after the young. I spent ages yesterday watching a beautiful male great-crested grebe grooming a young one then giving for fish and feeding it while it complained loudly.

*diving

"Because certain species have females stay at home with babies whilst the males go hunting?"

But we're not animals! We have far larger brains than other animals do.

My dog will take a shit in the street, that doesn't mean I should too.

As an aside, for those who don’t know of Sam, Sam has some huge songs, one of which is a James Bond theme. I imagine most would recognise the actual songs if played.

I do not believe that people think you can separate sex and gender 100 percent.

Why would you want to? There will be more bad come out of this than good.

Unlike most people who identify as non-binary, I am actually, biologically, non-binary (i.e. intersex). And I still think it's a load of wank to expect people to use they/their pronouns. (Also, why do they not use "it"? They're still presumably one person.) I do, however, quite like "Mx".

You are whatever gender you were born, end of.

If you want to pretend you're something else or change things with medical intervention - fine, just don't expect the rest of us to go along with or take you seriously. I have no interest in keeping up with the latest identity fashions, it's all just silly and attention seeking.

That's my take on it.

01Sooverthemill, just Google him if you want. The world won't stop and no one gives a shit.

Emerald keep your negative bitching to yourself. This is not about Harry Styles  Non binary just means someone who doesn't feel either male or female. It's nothing to be scared of or to worry about.

How do you FEEL male or female?

I don't like "they" because in addition to being wanky it's awkward grammatically.

I've found this so reassuring to read. I keep quite about my feelings and thoughts on this subject (except to DH) as I don't want to be considered transphobic or a terf or illiberal or whatever the criticism du jour is, but the truth is that whilst I am fully prepared to respect and acknowledged anyone elses choice for themselves, I am quite fearful of the implication for wider society and shared living. It just feels like we are validating and confirming delusion.
Sam can wear whatever Sam wants to wear, but he's a bloke. And by nodding and facilitating his bravery, we are feeding into untruths.

I think Jonathan Van Ness from Queer Eye is a brilliant example of simply "being." He is a man who has fabulous and glossy long hair and a beard and a moustache. He sometimes wears beautiful long skirts and dresses and quite often very impractical shoes. He will refer to himself as "she" or "he" depending on his mood or situation. But he is a man and acknowledges himself to be.
He is a man who likes to do all of those things sometimes and simply does so
Now I don't know where his opinion and ideology sits on the subject of trans or non-binary people , and he may be very support of them. But his existence is as I've described. He just "is" without conversation or challenge.
I like that idea. Like the nu-romantic boys I idolised back in the day

So far we've determined that feeling female can mean menstrual cramps. What's feeling male then? Accidentally sat on your balls?

And here is my 🙄🙄 at all my typos!!

You are whatever gender you were born, end of.

Mindproject, I agree with everything you say except that you’re whatever sex you are born.

Gender is the stuff of ‘ladybrains’ - the regressive sexist crap that’s the reason it took us so long to get the vote & be able to study maths & science.

Simon i think it might be easier to fold towels using a penis rather than a vagina.
This has actually reminded me that after returning home from holiday, I requested that dh put a swan on our bed. Not literally, I don't like real swans after having had to run away from them when they tried to attack me once. No, I mean a swan made out of towels.
I will tell him to use his penis if he protests he doesn't know how.

I 'm also not taking any crap from him such as "I'm now non binary so don't do swans. "

I'll let you all know how this pans out.