Victim blaming and vulnerable situations...

[DafferDill]

Ok, I would like to talk to my DD about putting herself in vulnerable situations, but I would like to do this without victim blaming.

I want her to understand that mini skirts and getting paralytic does not mean it's ok to rape me, but that she is potentially putting herself in a vulnerable situation.

DP thinks it should be along the lines of there are predatory men out there, and while there are, she needs to be aware.

Of course I'll be having this conversation with DS's too but they are in infant school atm.

I think your DP has the better approach. There is no actual correlation between wearing a mini skirt and likelihood of being raped, afaiaa.

I would tread very very carefully. I wouldn't advise on her dress at all. I would talk about safe drinking, such as not leaving your drink unattended, staying with friends and always having a plan for getting home safely at the end of the night.

How old is she?

I get confused when people talk about victim blaming. Surely taking measures to keep yourself safe is sensible?

I agree - it is the perpatrators fault, not the victims, if someone is attacked etc. But totally disagree that we shouldn't give advice out to be careful re getting drunk, being alone in dark places etc

Do the people who think this advice is wrong never lock their doors?

DD's friend was attacked. She'd become separated from her friends on a night out and had a lot to drink. I emphasised to my DD that her friend's vulnerability was no excuse whatsoever for the man to attack her, but as her mother I have insisted that my DD understands the importance of not getting herself into a vulnerable position.

DP and I had the talk last night and basically said in the city were he comes from vast numbers of young women get drunk wearing next to nothing in the freezing cold with their knickers on show, flash their breasts and fall around in the gutter with their legs akimbo. It was a rather vivid picture he painted... I explained that rape doesn't happen because of what someone is wearing but he feels if DD were to behave this way she is putting herself at unnecessary risk.

I saw a perfect post the other week relating to rape and victim blaming

I am paraphrasing here but the gist of it was:-

If it was the skirt shorts, women wouldn't be raped whilst wearing clothes. But they do.

If it was being drunk, sober women wouldn't be raped. But they are.

If it was being a young woman, older women wouldn't be raped. But they are.

If it was being in an isolated area, women wouldn't be raped in public places. But they are.

There was quite a few of them all highlighting that it is not the woman's fault but the rapists.

Your husband is right in the fact she needs to be aware of her surroundings at all times and to try and not find herself alone.

I do see his point and agree to an extent, but in another country a woman going out without a male relative or her head uncovered could be seen as advertising herself. It's very depressing to even have to have this talk.

I have spoken to mine about being sensible and cautious. For example, always walk down a lit street, don't take shortcuts that would put you in a potentially vulnerable position, don't have your music so loud it cuts out other noise. Be aware of your surroundings and choose the safe option, or the convenient one. Another one is to pretend to be on the phone to someone telling them your exact location and how far you are from getting home.
Stay in touch. If in doubt head for a busy place, or a petrol station and call home. I'd rather be disturbed to ensure their safety than them take risks and I have impressed this on them.
With DS it's more about not putting himself in a position to become embroiled in a fight.

I walk home sometimes at 3 or 4 in the morning (from a volunteering duty) and have no issues but take the above precautions.

How old is your DD?

She's 15

Don't forget to warn her not to have any boyfriends, male friends, or male colleagues. The vast majority of rapists are known to their victims. If you're hoping to prevent her from being raped, make sure you give her the true picture, then she can avoid being attacked

Safe drinking advice is applicable to both sexes-you can get mugged walking home alone wasted even if you're a man.

Find a unisex crime prevention talk as the first step, if you are thinking of assault by a stranger and safety during nights out.

Consider a self-defence course idc. Or martial arts classes (many junior programmes have a 'dealing with bullies' section that can the foundation from which you can build).

(My only comment on clothes would be 'if something was kicking off and you needed to get away fast, can you run in that?')

I would ask her to

1. always make sure she has full charge on her phone

2. on a night out link her phone with her mates (there's some app for it)

3. never accept a drink off a stranger unless it's being bought in front of and passed directly to her

4. always make sure she has enough money to get home

5. friends look out for one another

6. never go off with a stranger

Don't forget to warn her not to have any boyfriends, male friends, or male colleagues. The vast majority of rapists are known to their victims. If you're hoping to prevent her from being raped, make sure you give her the true picture, then she can avoid being attacked

Yes, this is great advice for not putting herself in vulnerable situations whilst out alone at night

Surely taking measures to keep yourself safe is sensible? This
**
According to some people on mn this is victim blaming. There's the ideal world and real world, you need to take precautions in the real world. It's only sensible to advise your kids to do that.

Are you reading the same thread ctjoy? Pretty much every poster is saying talking about safe drinking is a good thing.

Very difficult. It's absolutely right that the people that carry out these kinds of attacks are 100% to blame and the responsibility lies with them.

But I also feel we as individuals (men AND women) should take responsibility for ourselves and not put ourselves in vulnerable positions.

But it's very difficult to say that without sounding like you are victim blaming

We have had this talk with dd.

Along the lines of 'if someone hurts you, it's entirely them who is to blame. However going out and getting very drunk puts yourself in a vulnerable position. Not just because of rape. You could fall in the road or anything'

We showed her the story of the students in York that ended up in the river after being drunk.

We also discuss what's not ok in relationships.

Being paralytic puts her at risk of many crimes or accidents but that applies to your son too though maybe not at his age. Wearing a miniskirt does not put her at higher risk. Victims do not become victims due to clothing. Those scantily clad women falling over drunk in the gutters are not at a higher risk than a sensibly dressed woman, they become victims through being in the wrong place at the wrong time problem is you can not judge what the wrong place is because it is the place that the rapist is and they move around.

The trick is to not focus on rape, if you are vulnerable due to drink you are probably more likely to have an accident than you are to be raped so keep things in perspective. Drinking to excess is not good for many reasons and rape is only a tiny part of it.

Safe drinking advice applies to both sexes

So does the 'not wandering about on your own advice'

But the getting constantly sexually harassed or groped advice is particular to women.

I think what you're wearing obviously should only be about what you want to wear but here and now it isn't. If you're wearing very revealing clothes men will use that as an opportunity to be more gropey or harass you. They are pigs and there's no accounting for or preventing pigs.

Daffer you're missing the point that what was making. You're talking about her being vulnerable on nights out, but she is MORE at risk from male colleagues, friends or boyfriends than she is from a random attack on a night out. And telling her not to wear miniskirts or get too drunk won't make a blind bit of difference in those cases.

Yes people are more vulnerable when they're drunk, but that is people in general not just girls, and advising people not to get so bladdered they can't think straight is sensible advice.

The problem I have with conflating safety advice with clothing, is you're basically saying "if there's two girls and one is wearing a miniskirt and low cut top and the other in jeans and a sweatshirt, the one in the miniskirt will get raped" this is not the case. She is no more at risk in a miniskirt. There was a hashtag trending on twitter a while ago in response to this, and most people were wearing jeans, or tracksuits, or pjs, when they were raped. Because they were at home and their uncle decided to abuse her. Or over at the boyfriend's house, didn't feel like having sex but boyfriend wanted to so did it anyway. That's the reality in rape cases.

I equates it to locking your door at night.

If someone breaks in your home, they are to blame. But you can takes steps to protect yourself. You shouldn't have to. You should be able to leave your door unlocked, but unfortunately that's not how the real world works.

I fucking hate the binge drinking culture in this country. Wish my DC could grow up somewhere where it's not the done thing every weekend

Absolutely katenka. I haven't seen any evidence you're more likely to be broken in to if you're wearing a skimpy nighty than if you're wearing huge comfy pjs. Clothing shouldn't come into it.