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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Victim blaming and vulnerable situations...

92 replies

DafferDill · 11/03/2016 13:47

Ok, I would like to talk to my DD about putting herself in vulnerable situations, but I would like to do this without victim blaming.

I want her to understand that mini skirts and getting paralytic does not mean it's ok to rape me, but that she is potentially putting herself in a vulnerable situation.

DP thinks it should be along the lines of there are predatory men out there, and while there are, she needs to be aware.

Of course I'll be having this conversation with DS's too but they are in infant school atm.

OP posts:

NewYearNewToads · 11/03/2016 14:54

Quit back paddling.

Just admit you said something disgusting instead of claiming you meant something different.

MorrisZapp · 11/03/2016 14:55

I totally agree re opportunists.

Katenka · 11/03/2016 14:55

newyear

For the last time I am not back peddling. You misunderstood my post.

I equated taking steps to keep yourself safe to locking your door.

shovetheholly · 11/03/2016 14:56

If you are worried, take her to karate. I'm serious.

kittentits · 11/03/2016 14:58

I presume nobody would actually say to their daughter/sister or whatever who had been raped "well it was because you were wearing that short skirt". Those that would even think are reprehensible individuals and not even worth addressing. Those that wouldn't though, then why on earth would you have the conversation in the first place? "don't wear miniskirts in case of rapists, but if you do it's not your fault".. Clothing is not the issue.

Also katenka interestingly I hadn't even read your post when I typed mine, I was posting in anticipation because there are always people who come along on rape threads to say "well you wouldn't leave your door unlocked would you..." it just happened that you were the one who said it this time. Happy coincidences. I'm perfectly calm thanks

NewYearNewToads · 11/03/2016 14:59

The OP wants to talk to her DD about keeping safe.

If her DD meets a rapist who decides to rape her then he will rape her.

No amount of "keeping safe" will change that.

trollopolis · 11/03/2016 15:01

Katenka: I saw what you meant.

And I think the inability to distinguish between self defence, and the risks on a night out (which in terms of attack by stranger apply to both sexes) and victim blaming is unfortunate.

I think it is important to teach DC of both sexes to identify risk, and consider how to mitigate them.

And "don't rape my daughter, rape her daughter instead" strikes me as just ridiculous as 'don't mug my son mug his son instead'. Is anyone claiming that self defence guarantees safety? No. Is anyone saying 'only my DC will be taught about risk, specifically so yours can remain unaware'? No.

Everyone can learn self defence. There are free classes in some areas. You can choose whether it will benefit your DSes and DDs to have this knowledge. And this does not need to be done in reference to what other parents are teaching (or choosing not to teach) their DC about violent crime.

NewYearNewToads · 11/03/2016 15:04

I presume nobody would actually say to their daughter/sister or whatever who had been raped "well it was because you were wearing that short skirt"

When I was raped that was exactly what someone said to me.

I wasn't drunk, wasn't alone late at night, my skirt wasn't even short...it was a knee length skirt and I was wearing tights with it...however I still got told that I shouldn't have been wearing a skirt in the first place because it meant I was "leading him on".

The same person then concluded that this made it my fault and I couldn't complain about it

whatdoIget · 11/03/2016 15:05

This is about why the analogy about burglary doesn't work

NewYearNewToads · 11/03/2016 15:06

Is anyone saying 'only my DC will be taught about risk, specifically so yours can remain unaware'? No.

Again, women don't get raped because they didn't keep themselves safe or took risks.

They get raped because they meet a rapist.

whatdoIget · 11/03/2016 15:09

Sorry that happened to you NewYear. So important to make sure the blame lies with the right person ie the rapist. It's a myth that only certain types of women wearing certain clothes are likely to be raped. All this crap about how we can keep ourselves safe and lock up our vaginas like a house is avoiding talking about the actual problem, that some men rape women and think they are entitled to do so.

NewYearNewToads · 11/03/2016 15:10

If every woman decided to stop drinking tomorrow and decided to not go out after a certain time then it still wouldn't stop rape.

Do you honestly think those opportunistic rapists will just think to themselves "well women don't come out or get drunk any more so I'm going to have to stop raping now" or do you think it is far more likely they will simply start raping women who they are close to instead?

NewYearNewToads · 11/03/2016 15:15

If there is a rapist around who is determined to rape someone then someone is going to get raped.

If he started out as an opportunistic rapist specifically looking for a drunk vulnerable woman to rape however he couldn't find one because they've all been "keeping safe" and not taking risks then he will simply move on and find another woman to rape. Even if he decides to move on to raping women he knows, e.g girlfriend, friends, etc.

Hence my "don't rape my DD, rape her DD instead" comment. No matter what happens, he is going to rape someone.

BaronessEllaSaturday · 11/03/2016 15:15

NewYearNewToads

You can't give specific advice to protect yourself from rape because you can be raped drunk on a night out, you can be raped stone cold sober in the middle of the day. While we continue to give out the false idea that you can protect yourself from rape by not wearing revealing clothes or not getting too drunk we are doing a disservice to all victims and we are shifting, maybe not deliberately some of the blame onto victims.

TinklyLittleLaugh · 11/03/2016 15:17

We tell our daughter to have her wits about her and stick with her friends. When one of her friends proved to be unreliable we strongly suggested she only went to town with more reliable friends, which she did. We tell her not to get a cab on her own (though she has done) not to get a lift from a friend who has been drinking.

I don't think clothing makes any difference; DD has plenty of sleazy guys creeping around because she is apparently "classy" which round here seems to mean getting your legs out but not your norks.

Best thing DD ever did was get a job in a club. Being stone cold sober in the face of a lot of drunken messes put her off getting in that state herself.

Now DD is at Uni, she says people actually drink a lot less than in our home town. They do a lot more drugs though, both when they are out and when they get back from the club to their flats to chill. I think being off your face, in a flat, with a load of lads you may only know slightly, is a more dodgy situation than being drunk in the street.

MorrisZapp · 11/03/2016 15:19

The latter, new year. I think lots and lots of men will rape when given the chance ie when alone and/ or drunk with a vulnerable woman, but would not dream of raping a woman in his family or friendship circle.

If all alcohol and drugs were magically removed from society tomorrow, I think incidence rates of almost all crimes would go down, including rape and sexual assault.

NewYearNewToads · 11/03/2016 15:21

It is one thing to give people advice - e.g don't get yourself so drunk that you're completely wasted, stick with your friends, keep an eye on your friends, etc.

That's just good advice for both men and women and dare I say it, common sense.

However what I do have a problem with is when people only direct this advice towards women and when it's only done so that they can "protect themselves from being raped".

HazelBite · 11/03/2016 15:23

In the last 20 years or so a culture of binge drinking has developed, and this makes anyone vulnerable to being mugged, run over, having falls,accidents, or to sexual assault. I grew up in the 70's and used to be out most evenings of the week until the early hours , however as a group of girls, the driver never drank and we seldom drank much of anything alcoholic when out in a group, it had been imprinted into our minds that drunkeness made you vulnerable.

NewYearNewToads · 11/03/2016 15:26

Even if he wouldn't rape someone within his friendship or family circle then it still wouldn't stop him raping.

If he can't manage to find a drunk vulnerable woman on a night out to rape and he doesn't want to rape anyone he knows personally then he will probably just start raping women he encounters out in the day.

Both of the women I know who were raped by strangers were raped in broad daylight when they were sober and wearing jeans and a t-shirt.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 11/03/2016 15:26

One very interesting piece of advice that I read in a book by a personal security expert was for women to watch out for boundary pushers. e.g. the bloke who keeps nagging you to tell him your name or let him buy you a drink. The one who doesn't listen to your refusals or expressions of polite disinterest. Superficially, he may appear charming but he is actually overriding all your wishes and there is a risk he will keep doing so.

I agree that safe drinking applies to both sexes.

Trollicking · 11/03/2016 15:27

OP, I completely get what you are saying. I have two Uni age DDs and how I have dealt with it is by NOT giving any advice on clothing at all and by giving advice on binge drinking/drugs I've given the same advice to my DS's.

Both my girls have,on occasion, worn clothes that I think are a bit looking, the reason I don't like it is that they look tacky rather than thinking that they are increasing the risk of getting attacked. So I keep my opinion to myself and tell them they look beautiful.

Binge drinking/drugs are another matter all together as they increase the chances of something bad happening be it getting attacked, loosing things, having unprotected sex etc. All my kids have had friends drink so much that they can't remember what they did. I think that's extremely irresponsible.

WhereYouLeftIt · 11/03/2016 15:28

I have no daughter, just a son, and I will be giving him exactly the same advice as I gave upthread, i.e. "sensible drinking, not letting drink be out of her sight in case it gets spiked, don't let yourself be separated from friends, money for taxi, phone charged etc." . He might be at less risk of rape (note that I said 'less risk' as opposed to 'no risk') but he is at just as much risk of getting robbed and probably more risk of getting his head kicked in.

CosyNook · 11/03/2016 15:31

The OP wants to talk to her DD about keeping safe.

If her DD meets a rapist who decides to rape her then he will rape her.

No amount of "keeping safe" will change that.

Its about being aware of risk, avoiding potentially dangerous situations.

NewYearNewToads · 11/03/2016 15:32

Most rapes also occur when the victim hasn't been drinking.

In the instances where alcohol was involved, I'm interested to know whether it was the victim who had been drinking or the perpetrator who had been drinking or both.

I do think there is a tendency to assume that if there was alcohol involved in a rape then it was the victim who had been drinking or both the victim and the perpetrator. Very few people tend to think only the perpetrator had been drinking.

I'm not saying that alcohol turns nice normal men into rapists but it's just something to ponder...

MorrisZapp · 11/03/2016 15:32

I don't think anybody on this thread has advised telling women what to wear, beyond being able to run if necessary.

Can we get away with the 'miniskirts are an invite to rapists' strawman please, as nobody said that.

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