Victim blaming and vulnerable situations...

[DafferDill]

Ok, I would like to talk to my DD about putting herself in vulnerable situations, but I would like to do this without victim blaming.

I want her to understand that mini skirts and getting paralytic does not mean it's ok to rape me, but that she is potentially putting herself in a vulnerable situation.

DP thinks it should be along the lines of there are predatory men out there, and while there are, she needs to be aware.

Of course I'll be having this conversation with DS's too but they are in infant school atm.

[Katenka]

But the getting constantly sexually harassed or groped advice is particular to women.

I disagree. I owned a restaurant and our males waiters had particular issues with women over about 40 thinking it was ok to grab their bums and crotches. Never happened to female waitresses. The restaurant next door was popular because then male waiters there allowed it. They hated it but it resulted in larger tips so they put up with it.

Of course it happens to women however it happens to men as well.

I will be giving ds the same advice as I give my dd.

[Pyjamaramadrama]

I think it turns into victim blaming when people imply that a women in a short skirt is 'asking for it'. Or a drunk young woman is 'well up for it'.

To me there's a big difference between advising a woman to only get in a booked taxi or to stay with her group of friends or watch her drink than telling her she's sending signals to men by wearing a low cut dress.

If a woman is raped then it becomes pointless and victim blaming to suggest that it was her fault because of something she did.

The biggest problem with victim blaming is that it also sends a message to men that if a woman dresses or acts in a certain way then they have a right to have sex with her.

[Katenka]

Clothing shouldn't come into it.

Totally agree.

[Fanfeck]

Clothing should t have come into it at all OP. Everything else is valid though.

[Fanfeck]

*shouldn't

[hollinhurst84]

I would go with
Charged phone
Tenner in her bra/shoe for emergency
That you will always have change available for taxi at home no questions asked
If she feels uncomfortable, remove herself from the situation (gut instinct, atmosphere in a bar/club)
She can always call you or X or Y, any time
Have a back up plan - for example if she was getting a lift with a friend and the friend decided to drive drunk (see taxi money comment above)
Never get in a car with someone who has been drinking
Don't leave drink unattended
Shout fire rather than help
Be loud if someone is doing something and use people around you "this man in the red top is harassing me" or to approach someone like a group of girls/mum and child etc to walk with

[kittentits]

X posted with others who said it better than I did!

Rape is a horrible crime and nobody should have to ever experience it. But there are no campaigns aimed at people who might get murdered are there. Because it can happen to anyone, at any time. Nobody would say of someone who got murdered "well they shouldn't have done/worn/said XYZ should they". Victim blaming is epidemic in rape cases, even within the law. Women who are raped are asked what they were wearing, were they drunk, had they had sex with their rapist before, it's all irrelevant and doesn't happen for other crimes.

And no, you can't equate rape to leaving your front door open. My vagina is not my front door, violating me sexually is not the same as having my TV and dvd player nicked. Thanks.

[hollinhurst84]

Oh and tell someone where you are going and what time you will be back
I never had a curfew so could say "3am" but if I wasn't back at one minute past 3am my parents knew to ring/worry as I was never late

[NewYearNewToads]

I equates it to locking your door at night.

If someone breaks in your home, they are to blame. But you can takes steps to protect yourself. You shouldn't have to. You should be able to leave your door unlocked, but unfortunately that's not how the real world works.

No offence but that's a terrible analogy.

I can lock up my valuables however I can't lock up my vagina.

[Katenka]

And no, you can't equate rape to leaving your front door open. My vagina is not my front door, violating me sexually is not the same as having my TV and dvd player nicked. Thanks.

Calm down. Actually people who have been burgled often feel completely violated. It can be so traumatic in can cause years of problems for people's mental health, they may have to move and or seek therapy.

Besides which I didn't equate rape to been burgled. I equated it to the conversation about being drunk. That you have some responsibility to yourself. If you are raped it's not your fault. However rape isn't the only thing that can happen when you are drunk.

If you are going to have a go rtft.

[Katenka]

I can lock up my valuables however I can't lock up my vagina.

Ffs I did equate rape to burglary. If you read all my posts. I equates it to looking after yourself. Rtft

[pinkyredrose]

Katenka what the fresh hell is this, a restaurant where the male waiters routinely put up with being groped in exchange for better tips? Would you be able to name the place?

[NewYearNewToads]

I think what whatdoIget is trying to say Daffer is that your DD is actually far more likely to be raped by someone she knows and even trusts than she is by a stranger when out late at night. Hence the advice to your DD should be not to have male friends, male acquaintances, etc.

Stranger rapes are rare. The vast majority of rapes (90% I believe) are committed by someone known to the victim, e.g boyfriend, work colleague, friend, etc. The majority of rapes happen in places where the victim should be safe and would normally feel safe e.g in their own home or at work.

[Katenka]

Katenka what the fresh hell is this, a restaurant where the male waiters routinely put up with being groped in exchange for better tips? Would you be able to name the place?

I would but it would put me as I owned the place next door. It was is Italian in West Yorkshire. Every weekend was full of drunks and this sort of behaviour.

[Lweji]

I'd go for a generic conversation about being safe in general.
She might also be mugged or a victim of violence.

Being aware and what evasion attitudes to take are always useful, reinforcing the message that whatever happens it is never her fault.

It might be worth going through hypotheses of what she would do if X happens. For example, if she thinks she is being followed, or if she doesn't feel comfortable with someone's attention, or if someone asks her for directions when alone, or if she finds herself without money or phone battery.

But not regarding an assault. Nobody can tell how they'd react if suddenly grabbed, for example. They could fight or freeze easily. A few self defence classes could help, but they are not fool proof either.

[NewYearNewToads]

Ffs I did equate rape to burglary

Yes you did. Stop back paddling.

I equates it to looking after yourself.

Women don't get raped because they don't look after themselves. They get raped because they come across a rapist.

[Katenka]

I said

We have had this talk with dd.
*
Along the lines of 'if someone hurts you, it's entirely them who is to blame. However going out and getting very drunk puts yourself in a vulnerable position. Not just because of rape. You could fall in the road or anything'

We showed her the story of the students in York that ended up in the river after being drunk.
*
We also discuss what's not ok in relationships.

And followed it by

I equates it to locking your door at night.

If someone breaks in your home, they are to blame. But you can takes steps to protect yourself. You shouldn't have to. You should be able to leave your door unlocked, but unfortunately that's not how the real world works.

As I said in my first post if some hurts you, it's their fault. But going out and drinking makes you vulnerable to many things.

I am not back peddling.

[Katenka]

Women don't get raped because they don't look after themselves. They get raped because they come across a rapist.

I clearly said something very similar.

[NewYearNewToads]

Also advising your DD to keep safe doesn't actually stop rape, does it?

It might mean that your daughter doesn't get raped however if there is a rapist around and he is determined to rape someone then he will rape someone.

If he misses his chance to rape your daughter then he will simply go and rape someone else.

So what you're really saying is "don't rape my daughter, rape her daughter instead"

[MorrisZapp]

This is the most classic way in which mn differs from the real world.

Those of you with teenage or young adult daughters, do you really feel more reassured when your dd is coming home on her own, pissed at 2am than you do when she visits her uncles house because statistically she's more likely to be raped by her uncle?

My mum is a radical feminist but she never slept until me and my sister were safely home on a night.

I have never had one iota of sexual harassment from a family member or friend. But I've had literally countless incidents of wide ranging severity from strangers when drunk. Including a very dodgy situation that I could have avoided had I stayed a bit more sober.

I have no shame at all in passing on any wisdom based upon my personal experience and that of all my friends in the real actual world.

[whatdoIget]

Thanks NewYearNewToads that is what I meant

[NewYearNewToads]

You clearly said that you equate it to locking your door at night. Those were your words, not mine.

So yes you clearly were comparing rape and burglary.

However you now recognise that you said something vile so now you're trying to claim you meant something different.

[Katenka]

You clearly said that you equate it to locking your door at night. Those were your words, not mine

Yes I did.

I didn't say 'I equate rape to burglary'

I equate looking after yourself on a night out, or in a relationship to burglary.

You should look after yourself. But that doesn't mean bad things don't happen and that is the fault of the person doing the bad things.

You can keep saying that you know what I meant all you want. Still doesn't stop you being wrong.

[WhereYouLeftIt]

I would take the line that there are rapists out there and they are opportunists. Like any predator they will select what they perceive to be the weakest member of the herd, so she should be looking to not be perceived as vulnerable. Hence sensible drinking, not letting drink be out of her sight in case it gets spiked, don't let yourself be separated from friends, money for taxi, phone charged etc.

Liken it to stepping onto the road. There are cars out there so you look where you're going. There are predatory attackers out there, so you keep your wits about you.

[CosyNook]

This is turning into another Disrespect Nobody/Train Station poster thread, full of statistics and whose to blame if a woman is raped. The OP wants to talk to her DD about keeping safe.