Victim blaming and vulnerable situations...

[DafferDill]

Ok, I would like to talk to my DD about putting herself in vulnerable situations, but I would like to do this without victim blaming.

I want her to understand that mini skirts and getting paralytic does not mean it's ok to rape me, but that she is potentially putting herself in a vulnerable situation.

DP thinks it should be along the lines of there are predatory men out there, and while there are, she needs to be aware.

Of course I'll be having this conversation with DS's too but they are in infant school atm.

[theycallmemellojello]

There are good reasons not to get paralytically drunk beyond not getting raped. Of course you should tell her not to get paralytic, how bizarre that you need to ask. Miniskirts - is there any proof whatsoever that wearing these leads to increased sexual assault? I've never heard this. I really doubt they're a major risk factor. So, no, I wouldn't mention them.

[RitaVinTease]

Taking sensible steps to reduce risk is not victim blaming.

Telling someone they were raped because they wore a mini skirt is victim blaming.

[NewYearNewToads]

I do think we have to be careful about how we give safety advice out.

I know a woman who was raped at a party when she was a teenager. She was drunk at the time it happened.

She was one of these people who had always had it drilled into her by her mother to be careful, don't put yourself at risk, don't get drunk, etc.

As a result she didn't tell her mother what had happened because she was terrified that her mother would blame her or hold her responsible for what had happened. She was scared her mother would tell her off because she had always told her to not put herself at risk and she felt like she had done exactly that.

She blamed herself for years.

Whilst I'm sure her mother wouldn't have blamed her and would have done everything she could to support her daughter, the point is she still felt that way because of what she had grown up listening to.

I'm also a member of a sexual abuse and assault support forum and it is heartbreaking how many women were assaulted as teens or young adults who were terrified to tell anyone what had happened to them because again, they had grown up listening to advice such as don't put yourself at risk and they felt they had put themselves at risk in some way.

So by all means give advice but I think we need to be so careful how we deliver that advice.

And that's also why I think the advice should remain gender neutral and not to be geared up towards rape and sexual assault.

[CesareBorgiasUnicornMask]

Just some musings - as PP said the attitude on this thread is very black and white, and unfortunately rape, like almost all situations involving actual real people instead of internet cardboard cutouts, rarely fits neatly into boxes.

I was the most boring undergraduate student imaginable. I went out clubbing once during freshers week, and once later that first term. I had had every safety talk going from my mum, and had mostly listened- I'd walk a deliberately long route back from church on Sunday evening when it was dark in the winter so I was on well-lit streets. At 6pm . I have never in my life worn a mini-skirt, got in a car with a stranger, walked down a dark alley while listening to music or got so drunk I couldn't walk. And yet the second time I ever went to a club I ended up being raped. It was definitely opportunistic - I wasn't so drunk I couldn't walk but I was too drunk to put up much of a fight. And too drunk to consent. Do I think he'd have just 'raped someone else' if I'd taken better care of myself, though? No - because the rapist was my best friend, who walked me home past all the nasty rapey drunk strangers, let us both into my room and then jumped on me.

I do not blame myself. Nor do I think that women who do do any of the things above, like wearing mini-skirts and regularly getting legless are to blame if bad things happen to them. But the fact remains that if I had not been drunk it would simply never have happened. Something else might have, but that particular rape by that particular person would have been avoided. So I will be telling DS, when he grows up, and any DDs I might have that they are at more risk - of everything from rape, to mugging, to getting caught up in violence, all the way down to friends 'borrowing' too much money or leaving them with the taxi fare if they are too drunk to think straight, or to act quickly. I don't think that's blaming them if things go wrong, it's warning them of what could happen. And at the end of the day it may not help and something awful might happen to them anyway, but at least I'll have tried.

[NewYearNewToads]

Cosy do you mean because I've dared to mention that safety advice should be given to men instead?

Because it damn well should be imo.

[NewYearNewToads]

So what are you advising NewYearNewToads? That we shouldn't be talking to our offspring about keeping their wits about them?

No that's not what I'm saying at all.

Giving advice is one thing. Telling your DC to not get paralytic, to stick with their friends, to keep an eye on each other, etc is fine.

However what is not fine is directing that advice only towards women and directing it towards women because they might get raped.

[NewYearNewToads]

I was posting about risks during nights out

Which applies to everybody, not just women.

[NewYearNewToads]

Cosy what are you talking about? I haven't brought up men so I'm not sure what you mean by "what about the men?".

[trollopolis]

"Is anyone saying 'only my DC will be taught about risk, specifically so yours can remain unaware'? No.

Again, women don't get raped because they didn't keep themselves safe or took risks.

They get raped because they meet a rapist."

No-one is disagreeing with that. But please note I wasn't posting about rape. I was posting about risks during nights out; that's not just rape. It's not even just crime.

But considering solely crime, I think it is worth looking at what is known about victim selection, and trying to avoid being selected. It's like reminding my ageing DM that she has to remember to zip her purse way, or tell young DS not to flash his phone around near the station. Or older DS not to take the river path when he's been drinking, and not to drink that much in the first place. Am I somehow, by seeking to protect (however incompletely) those I feel some responsibility towards, somehow pushing others into the paths of miscreants or misfortune? No, of course not.

Also, even though fully cognisant that child sexual abuse is much more likely to come from someone known, I still taught my DC never to go off with strangers and they should scream and shout if someone tried. And in doing so, I was most emphatically not thinking 'don't take my DC, take someone else's'.

[CosyNook]

NewYearNewToads I wondered how long it would take for the 'what about the men' to appear.

This thread is just another excuse to regurgitate the Disrespect/Train poster/etc threads, and not about general discussion.

OP - your thread title does not match your opening paragraph, I suspect it was deliberate attempt to stir up this debate again.

[WhereYouLeftIt]

So what are you advising NewYearNewToads? That we shouldn't be talking to our offspring about keeping their wits about them? Tell them 'well someone's going to get raped, it might as well be you as someone else's daughter'?

[BlueJug]

All the posturing on here and trendy buzz words and right on credentials are bollocks.

In the end it is about survival and staying safe and we all tell our kids whatever we tell them to keep them safe. It is a private conversation not a political treatise.

By all means slag off other women for not being politically correct - in fact accuse them of being victim blamers and practically pro-rape because that achieves so much.

Some nasty stuff here as usual and the ridiculous black/white thinking, taking things out of context and jumping on it.

[NewYearNewToads]

And yes, people do blame women if they are raped whilst wearing a skirt, short or otherwise.

It happened to me. I was wearing a knee length skirt with tights when raped and I was later told that I had brought it on myself for wearing a skirt.

[NewYearNewToads]

The OP said that wearing mini skirts makes you more vulnerable.

Other people have been responding to that throughout the thread.

[NewYearNewToads]

Can we get away with the 'miniskirts are an invite to rapists' strawman please, as nobody said that.

The OP was the one who mentioned short skirts.

[BaronessEllaSaturday]

MorrisZapp it was the op that started talking about miniskirts making her dd vulnerable.

[NewYearNewToads]

Its about being aware of risk, avoiding potentially dangerous situations.

Surely that applies to both sexes and not just advice to help a woman "avoid rape".

It's one thing to give tips on keeping safe and then it's another to only give that advice to females and only to protect them from rape.

It's the latter that I have a problem with.

[MorrisZapp]

I don't think anybody on this thread has advised telling women what to wear, beyond being able to run if necessary.

Can we get away with the 'miniskirts are an invite to rapists' strawman please, as nobody said that.

[NewYearNewToads]

Most rapes also occur when the victim hasn't been drinking.

In the instances where alcohol was involved, I'm interested to know whether it was the victim who had been drinking or the perpetrator who had been drinking or both.

I do think there is a tendency to assume that if there was alcohol involved in a rape then it was the victim who had been drinking or both the victim and the perpetrator. Very few people tend to think only the perpetrator had been drinking.

I'm not saying that alcohol turns nice normal men into rapists but it's just something to ponder...

[CosyNook]

The OP wants to talk to her DD about keeping safe.

If her DD meets a rapist who decides to rape her then he will rape her.

No amount of "keeping safe" will change that.

Its about being aware of risk, avoiding potentially dangerous situations.

[WhereYouLeftIt]

I have no daughter, just a son, and I will be giving him exactly the same advice as I gave upthread, i.e. "sensible drinking, not letting drink be out of her sight in case it gets spiked, don't let yourself be separated from friends, money for taxi, phone charged etc." . He might be at less risk of rape (note that I said 'less risk' as opposed to 'no risk') but he is at just as much risk of getting robbed and probably more risk of getting his head kicked in.

[Trollicking]

OP, I completely get what you are saying. I have two Uni age DDs and how I have dealt with it is by NOT giving any advice on clothing at all and by giving advice on binge drinking/drugs I've given the same advice to my DS's.

Both my girls have,on occasion, worn clothes that I think are a bit looking, the reason I don't like it is that they look tacky rather than thinking that they are increasing the risk of getting attacked. So I keep my opinion to myself and tell them they look beautiful.

Binge drinking/drugs are another matter all together as they increase the chances of something bad happening be it getting attacked, loosing things, having unprotected sex etc. All my kids have had friends drink so much that they can't remember what they did. I think that's extremely irresponsible.

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

One very interesting piece of advice that I read in a book by a personal security expert was for women to watch out for boundary pushers. e.g. the bloke who keeps nagging you to tell him your name or let him buy you a drink. The one who doesn't listen to your refusals or expressions of polite disinterest. Superficially, he may appear charming but he is actually overriding all your wishes and there is a risk he will keep doing so.

I agree that safe drinking applies to both sexes.

[NewYearNewToads]

The latter, new year. I think lots and lots of men will rape when given the chance ie when alone and/ or drunk with a vulnerable woman, but would not dream of raping a woman in his family or friendship circle.

Even if he wouldn't rape someone within his friendship or family circle then it still wouldn't stop him raping.

If he can't manage to find a drunk vulnerable woman on a night out to rape and he doesn't want to rape anyone he knows personally then he will probably just start raping women he encounters out in the day.

Both of the women I know who were raped by strangers were raped in broad daylight when they were sober and wearing jeans and a t-shirt.

[HazelBite]

In the last 20 years or so a culture of binge drinking has developed, and this makes anyone vulnerable to being mugged, run over, having falls,accidents, or to sexual assault. I grew up in the 70's and used to be out most evenings of the week until the early hours , however as a group of girls, the driver never drank and we seldom drank much of anything alcoholic when out in a group, it had been imprinted into our minds that drunkeness made you vulnerable.