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Lindsay Clancy trial continued.

135 replies

placemats · 11/09/2026 19:27

Previous thread here.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5565097-lindsay-clancy-trial?page=10&reply=154694959

OP posts:
Lexibletheflexible · 13/09/2026 09:58

I met women who had harmed or killed their kids when I was in prison and since through voluntary work. Most of them claimed PPD or PPP. Some of them would only be there for a short time before being moved to a psychiatric facility. Some were sentenced for some form of neglect despite there being suspicion of intentional malice.

One woman came to prison after being in a hospital because her ex husband had changed his mind over years about her culpability and fought for it to happen. Initially, it was pretty much thought she would be released once the psychiatric staff thought her to be "well" enough..

Not all people who have seriously harmed or killed their children are in prison for that assault/injury. Some aren't even in prison for that at all. They might be in there for drugs that were found in the house after their child was injured for example.

The thing that I found is that in many cases, you'll never really know whether mental illness was the defining factor in their actions. As you can imagine, someone who would intentionally harm their children is likely to be highly manipulative and many of the women I speak of were like that. Even if they initially came across as pleasant and well to do in various ways.

You also of course see people who are obviously plagued by mental illness or cognitive impairment of some kind and incorrectly sentenced to be in prison when they should be in a hospital or therapeutic facility of some kind.

Some of these women were able to make rational plans based on what were delusions. So they might think that the government is trying to take their baby for some form of testing due to the baby being special in some way, so they flee with the baby through the night using "off grid" methods to escape to the wilderness where they won't be found. Cash they withdrew and banked over days. Lying to family about plans to divert them etc.

My experiences have made me think that we need to treat perinatal mental illness more seriously. We need to only apply these terms or have specific terms for people who have a perinatal mental illness that puts themselves or others at risk. And I think that generally, those with a serious mental illness need to have compulsory contact with a multidisciplinary mental health team in the perinatal period and perhaps while they remain the carers of children or other vulnerable people.

A woman like Lynsey Clancy should not be discharged into the community on multiple medications (whether she is taking them or not), reporting symptoms of serious mental illness and it is accepted by staff and her loved ones that she will return to be the primary carer to children. Some sort of safeguarding meeting should take place where it is clear she should not have unsupervised access to the child(ren), even if she can live in the same home as them. This is something they issue to parents all the time while they assess their capability to be alone with their child.

I think we need to get rid of this idea that you can be on strong psychiatric medication and taking that makes you the same as someone who doesn't need that medication to have the same sense of stability and well-being. You're still a person with a severe mental illness which is only controlled by regular adherence to medication and possibly other forms of treatment and therapy. That may have some impact on your independence and ability to care for others in various ways.

I know people with SMIs can lead perfectly independent lives and manage their condition extremely well. But a bit like certain conditions means that you have more "check ins" as a driver, I think the same should occur when someone has a SMI and will be caring for others. The idea that someone can have bipolar, get pregnant and refuse care from the perinatal mental health team doesn't sit right with me.

BreatheAndFocus · 13/09/2026 10:01

There’s also the possibility that LC didn’t pre-plan this and that, for some other innocent reason, she chose the more distant restaurant. Then, while she was home alone with the children something happened - a child did or said something or wouldn’t listen, etc - and she just snapped.

If she’d raged at one child, the others would have seen and heard. Maybe one was a trigger, she then did something, was so stressed and appalled and panicking at what she’d done that she killed the other two (because they saw, because she thought they couldn’t live with what she’d done, etc, or because she had decided to kill herself and wanted them all to be ‘with her’) then attempted to kill herself.

kkloo · 13/09/2026 17:21

BreatheAndFocus · 13/09/2026 09:52

True, I should have clarified with ‘many people’, but I just don’t see the evidence that LC was in psychosis. If, as you suggest, she knew PC wouldn’t agree with her plan, then PC could still have noticed she wasn’t herself. He might not have understood just how much she was not herself, he might even have realised but never envisaged she’d do something like that, but he would have recalled the ‘not quite herself’ in hindsight when he gave evidence.

He said she was having one of her best days but it's unclear how much he saw her physically or interacted with her in person that day. He was downstairs working for most of the day.

I believe they interacted in the morning before she left with Cora for the doctors appointment but it doesn't say. They were texting while she was at the appointment.
She came home and he went down to the basement to work.
Lindsay built a snowman with the kids and did art projects with the kids and she was texting Patrick pictures of these.
When asked how many times he had went up to interact with Lindsay and the kids he said 'once or twice, it was a busier day than usual'. He was asked how did she seem when he went up and he said she seemed happy and he was asked how he could tell and what she was doing and he said she was playing with the kids.
So it's not clear whether he really spoke to her at those times.
Then obviously the arrangements for the pharmacy and restaurant were over text....so it looks like there was only a few short minutes where they interacting in person just before he left.

kkloo · 13/09/2026 17:46

Palomiino · 13/09/2026 09:39

No ‘one thing’ is strong evidence. Look, I didn’t know the woman. I may be wrong but I don’t think so based on the totality of the evidence that I have seen. I have no reason to want her to be guilty just because.

I look at things from a point of view of what’s the most likely explanation because that’s usually the correct one.

I worry about the evolution of a culture where women can get away with murdering their children and people feel sorry for them.

The idea that she could walk free and repeat this cycle is horrifying.

I look at things from a point of view of what’s the most likely explanation because that’s usually the correct one.

So do I and I believe that in this case the most likely explanation is that her mental illness became so severe it deprived her of the ability to obey the law.

I worry about the evolution of a culture where women can get away with murdering their children and people feel sorry for them.

This is not new, and the debate has waged for centuries and divided people, even the ancient Greeks were debating this and still lawmakers and psychiatric experts gabble with it and have differences in opinion. I don't expect that this is ever going to change.

The law Commission of England and Wales is currently reviewing homicide law, and infanticide is included, some critics of the existing laws want the laws around infanticide to be made more compassionate.

BreatheAndFocus · 13/09/2026 18:23

kkloo · 13/09/2026 17:21

He said she was having one of her best days but it's unclear how much he saw her physically or interacted with her in person that day. He was downstairs working for most of the day.

I believe they interacted in the morning before she left with Cora for the doctors appointment but it doesn't say. They were texting while she was at the appointment.
She came home and he went down to the basement to work.
Lindsay built a snowman with the kids and did art projects with the kids and she was texting Patrick pictures of these.
When asked how many times he had went up to interact with Lindsay and the kids he said 'once or twice, it was a busier day than usual'. He was asked how did she seem when he went up and he said she seemed happy and he was asked how he could tell and what she was doing and he said she was playing with the kids.
So it's not clear whether he really spoke to her at those times.
Then obviously the arrangements for the pharmacy and restaurant were over text....so it looks like there was only a few short minutes where they interacting in person just before he left.

He still interacted with her on a number of occasions. He said she spoke normally and wrote her texts normally. Presumably he also saw her in bed that morning and during the time spent getting up and getting ready. I think he also said he came up for lunch.

The person I mentioned who had psychosis was different even though I didn’t interact with them before my conversation. I was aware of a quietness, a distractedness, the lack of normal eye contact, and so on. And I knew that person far less well than PC knows his ex-wife.

kkloo · 13/09/2026 19:07

BreatheAndFocus · 13/09/2026 18:23

He still interacted with her on a number of occasions. He said she spoke normally and wrote her texts normally. Presumably he also saw her in bed that morning and during the time spent getting up and getting ready. I think he also said he came up for lunch.

The person I mentioned who had psychosis was different even though I didn’t interact with them before my conversation. I was aware of a quietness, a distractedness, the lack of normal eye contact, and so on. And I knew that person far less well than PC knows his ex-wife.

He did but then they could have just been the brief rushed interactions that often happen in a busy household. I don't see him saying anything about going up for lunch that day, but of course it may have happened.

Deirdre Morleys husband didn't notice anything different about her either, he had been on an overnight trip the day she killed the children, but had been there the day before, and she tried to drug them that night but it didn't work. They had several phone calls on the day she killed the children too, after they were dead, but she gave nothing away.

So sometimes it is missed or there really are no obvious signs, even in hindsight.

kkloo · 13/09/2026 19:13

It's interesting how we never heard anything about what Lindsay meant when she had told Patrick and her mother she had thoughts of harming the children.

I would have thought the experts would have asked her that in their evaluations, like was it a specific method, when she had thoughts of harming her children were they just intrusive thoughts or was she thinking I should kill them so I can kill myself or did those thoughts come more at a certain time like when she was frustrated etc etc.

It's possible they did but neither side felt the answers were particularly helpful to their case so they didn't use them in their testimony but it would be interesting to know what Lindsay had said about them.

BreatheAndFocus · 13/09/2026 20:09

Deirdre Morleys husband didn't notice anything different about her either, he had been on an overnight trip the day she killed the children, but had been there the day before, and she tried to drug them that night but it didn't work. They had several phone calls on the day she killed the children too, after they were dead, but she gave nothing away

I don’t know very much about that case but weren’t they all in agreement about her insanity? So not like LC.

You - or someone else - suggested LC’s psychosis waxed and waned. I find that really hard to believe - that is, that it conveniently wasn’t there when she saw doctors and others.

kkloo · 13/09/2026 20:38

BreatheAndFocus · 13/09/2026 20:09

Deirdre Morleys husband didn't notice anything different about her either, he had been on an overnight trip the day she killed the children, but had been there the day before, and she tried to drug them that night but it didn't work. They had several phone calls on the day she killed the children too, after they were dead, but she gave nothing away

I don’t know very much about that case but weren’t they all in agreement about her insanity? So not like LC.

You - or someone else - suggested LC’s psychosis waxed and waned. I find that really hard to believe - that is, that it conveniently wasn’t there when she saw doctors and others.

They were in agreement but reading the stories I believe that if Lindsay Clancy was in Ireland then the experts would have been in agreement on her too that she was psychotic.

No that wasn't me. My understanding is that it can wax and wane but I wasn't the one who said it.

However, now that you mention it, you said you don't know much about the Deirdre Morley case but it certainly seems like hers did wax and wane, she tried to drug her kids the night before so that it would be less painful, it didn't work and she was relieved it hadn't worked, and thought 'I can't do it, but I don't know how I'm going to go on'.

Then the next day there was a minor argument over screen time (and her delusion was very related to believing she'd ruined her kids with bad parenting and her mental illness) so then this was confirmation in her mind that her kids were in fact ruined and she had to go through with it and she switched back to believing that this had to be done.

She killed two of her children and the other one was still in school, she collected him, brought him to Tesco to get a roll, let him watch some TV and thought to herself that she couldn't do it because he was being so good, she also considered dropping him to a friends house and letting him live, but then ultimately she decided she had to go through with it because she'd killed his 2 siblings.

It's possible looking at the timeline that it could be said that at the time she killed her third child Conor that she was not psychotic, or that she certainly seemed more capable of thinking clearly at that point, and it's certainly not in any way a psychotic or delusional belief to think your child will suffer forever if they live after their mother just killed their siblings, however both the prosecution and defence agreed she was psychotic at the time of the killings and didn't differentiate between each one.

Palomiino · 13/09/2026 21:40

The first thing she did when waking up was to ask for a lawyer. If I had done what she did whilst insane I most certainly would not be primarily thinking about saving my own skin.

BreatheAndFocus · 13/09/2026 21:55

She killed two of her children and the other one was still in school, she collected him, brought him to Tesco to get a roll, let him watch some TV and thought to herself that she couldn't do it because he was being so good, she also considered dropping him to a friends house and letting him live, but then ultimately she decided she had to go through with it because she'd killed his 2 siblings

I think it’s possible LC did the same - decided to kill them all after something involving only one of them.

The details of Deirdre Morley’s story are shocking. I know we’re not talking about that but I’d find it hard to believe she was unable to follow the law for that 3rd killing. People think warped things and it doesn’t always mean they’re insane.

I think LC was exhausted and at her wits end. Tiredness over a long period of time can really mess with you, making you feel detached from the world. But none of that is insanity. I think sometimes crimes are so awful that we assume the perpetrator must have been mad to do it, but that’s not always the case.

Somanyrabbitholes · 13/09/2026 21:56

Palomiino · 13/09/2026 21:40

The first thing she did when waking up was to ask for a lawyer. If I had done what she did whilst insane I most certainly would not be primarily thinking about saving my own skin.

That's what the prosecution said. The defence said she asked where her family was and couldn't remember what had happened and had to be told. She did then ask if she needed a lawyer because she was handcuffed to the bed and surrounded my police officers.

kkloo · 13/09/2026 22:06

Palomiino · 13/09/2026 21:40

The first thing she did when waking up was to ask for a lawyer. If I had done what she did whilst insane I most certainly would not be primarily thinking about saving my own skin.

First she said she was horrified.

No one can possibly know for sure what they would or wouldn't do in that situation.

Lindsay was lying on the bed, severely injured, she was already in police custody, had a soft restraint on, there was police officers going in and out of the room, she was intubated and unable to speak. so I can absolutely see how when a doctor comes into the room and gives them something to write with that someone might wonder if they have a lawyer, they could be thinking they're about to get taken off immediately somewhere while they're in that state.

kkloo · 13/09/2026 22:11

BreatheAndFocus · 13/09/2026 21:55

She killed two of her children and the other one was still in school, she collected him, brought him to Tesco to get a roll, let him watch some TV and thought to herself that she couldn't do it because he was being so good, she also considered dropping him to a friends house and letting him live, but then ultimately she decided she had to go through with it because she'd killed his 2 siblings

I think it’s possible LC did the same - decided to kill them all after something involving only one of them.

The details of Deirdre Morley’s story are shocking. I know we’re not talking about that but I’d find it hard to believe she was unable to follow the law for that 3rd killing. People think warped things and it doesn’t always mean they’re insane.

I think LC was exhausted and at her wits end. Tiredness over a long period of time can really mess with you, making you feel detached from the world. But none of that is insanity. I think sometimes crimes are so awful that we assume the perpetrator must have been mad to do it, but that’s not always the case.

Well no Deirdres plan was to kill all 3, when there was an argument over screen time that morning it reinforced her delusions that the kids were doomed, all of them, not just the child that she had the argument with.
And as I said the night before she had tried to drug all of them so it wasn't specific to one child.

kkloo · 13/09/2026 22:16

Somanyrabbitholes · 13/09/2026 21:56

That's what the prosecution said. The defence said she asked where her family was and couldn't remember what had happened and had to be told. She did then ask if she needed a lawyer because she was handcuffed to the bed and surrounded my police officers.

Yes and I don't think we know how long she was awake and seeing these officers around her.
Impossible to know how any of us would react but I think it's possible someone was thinking 'am I going to be arrested and taken to jail now' and not even necessarily from the perspective of fear of jail and punishment, but terrified that they were going to be taken from hospital in an extremely unwell state, which I think is very understandable, that she might have just been thinking about what was going to happen there and then, not that she was thinking about a defence, a trial, life in jail etc.

Palomiino · 13/09/2026 22:35

So, what is likely to happen now? Will she just stay in hospital?

BreatheAndFocus · 13/09/2026 22:47

kkloo · 13/09/2026 22:11

Well no Deirdres plan was to kill all 3, when there was an argument over screen time that morning it reinforced her delusions that the kids were doomed, all of them, not just the child that she had the argument with.
And as I said the night before she had tried to drug all of them so it wasn't specific to one child.

Ok, but you said she did have that moment of doubt before killing the 3rd child. You also said you thought it a possibility that she wasn’t psychotic then like when she killed the other two.

I don’t know enough to comment on her case, but it’s shocking. TBH, I’m surprised she hadn’t killed herself now (is she out of hospital?).

BreatheAndFocus · 13/09/2026 22:51

kkloo · 13/09/2026 22:16

Yes and I don't think we know how long she was awake and seeing these officers around her.
Impossible to know how any of us would react but I think it's possible someone was thinking 'am I going to be arrested and taken to jail now' and not even necessarily from the perspective of fear of jail and punishment, but terrified that they were going to be taken from hospital in an extremely unwell state, which I think is very understandable, that she might have just been thinking about what was going to happen there and then, not that she was thinking about a defence, a trial, life in jail etc.

The first thing I’d write would be to ask what happened. If I got a vague answer about me not being very well mentally, I’d specifically ask about my children and how they were and where they were. A lawyer might be on my list but it would be below me trying to understand what had happened and asking about my children.

kkloo · 13/09/2026 23:12

BreatheAndFocus · 13/09/2026 22:47

Ok, but you said she did have that moment of doubt before killing the 3rd child. You also said you thought it a possibility that she wasn’t psychotic then like when she killed the other two.

I don’t know enough to comment on her case, but it’s shocking. TBH, I’m surprised she hadn’t killed herself now (is she out of hospital?).

She did have doubts but that's what I'm talking about with the waxing and waning, if he'd been in the house when she killed the other 2 then she might have done it there and then but this was later on after some time had passed, and as I said the previous night she tried to drug all 3.

Yes I said "It's possible looking at the timeline that it could be said that at the time she killed her third child Conor that she was not psychotic, or that she certainly seemed more capable of thinking clearly at that point, "
but that regardless the experts evaluated the overall mental state as insane.

It was reported last year that Deirdre was out on unaccompanied day release, which is usually used for doing a course or working in the Dublin area so it's not just the case where they're off doing whatever they want, and I'm also unsure how much freedom people on unaccompanied day release actually get like if they're allowed to make their own way to where they're going or have to be accounted for at all times.

There's been no new reports since then.

kkloo · 13/09/2026 23:36

BreatheAndFocus · 13/09/2026 22:51

The first thing I’d write would be to ask what happened. If I got a vague answer about me not being very well mentally, I’d specifically ask about my children and how they were and where they were. A lawyer might be on my list but it would be below me trying to understand what had happened and asking about my children.

From what I recall the evidence seems to be lacking here and it's unclear whether she woke up remembering or not.

But if she did remember what happened she wouldn't have been asking what happened or how her kids were, she would probably write something exactly like she wrote which was that she was horrified

BreatheAndFocus · 14/09/2026 06:31

Every report I’ve read (and yes, obviously I haven’t read them all) said she had to be told that she’d killed her children. I personally don’t believe she forget, but it’s possible her severe medical condition affected her memory.

kkloo · 14/09/2026 06:45

BreatheAndFocus · 14/09/2026 06:31

Every report I’ve read (and yes, obviously I haven’t read them all) said she had to be told that she’d killed her children. I personally don’t believe she forget, but it’s possible her severe medical condition affected her memory.

I’ve read that a few times too but I tried to find it in the transcripts and couldn’t.

In the opening Reddington was talking about how the prosecution were going to say his expert told Lindsay to say she heard a voice but that it was actually the woman who worked in the religious services who she first mentioned the voices to, Reddington said the first thing she asked was “where’s my family” and then he said “and then she told her what had happened and told her about the command voices”.

So I’m not sure if it’s coming from that or not and people took it to mean that the lady told her what happened? But when she testified she said the first thing Lindsay said to her was “I am so glad my children are safe”

Open to correction if anyone else remembers anyone else saying it.

Sewingbeedamned · 14/09/2026 10:44

Palomiino · 13/09/2026 22:35

So, what is likely to happen now? Will she just stay in hospital?

It’s possible that the argument will be that they won’t be able to have another jury trial because of the chance of finding people who can be open minded about the evidence given the level of news coverage. And if the reports about the hold out juror are correct, there may be proceeding from that. It’s possible the charges will be dismissed.

Palomiino · 14/09/2026 11:55

Sewingbeedamned · 14/09/2026 10:44

It’s possible that the argument will be that they won’t be able to have another jury trial because of the chance of finding people who can be open minded about the evidence given the level of news coverage. And if the reports about the hold out juror are correct, there may be proceeding from that. It’s possible the charges will be dismissed.

That’s very concerning. She should be incarcerated somewhere. If she killed her children due to genuine insanity, she still needs to be in a hospital.

And if she was not insane and was a manipulative narcissist, she may find another dolt to have more children with and the cycle could repeat itself. God forbid that.

BreatheAndFocus · 14/09/2026 13:10

So I’m not sure if it’s coming from that or not and people took it to mean that the lady told her what happened? But when she testified she said the first thing Lindsay said to her was “I am so glad my children are safe”

I honestly can’t remember for sure, but I thought I read a medical person had suggested the voice to her. Her words about the children being safe are chilling. No wonder there was mention of altruistic killing. Of course, she’ll claim the voice told her that, but personally I think the voice was an internal voice justifying what she was about to do.

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