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Lindsay Clancy trial continued.

135 replies

placemats · 11/09/2026 19:27

Previous thread here.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5565097-lindsay-clancy-trial?page=10&reply=154694959

OP posts:
kkloo · 12/09/2026 18:42

Palomiino · 12/09/2026 18:03

No, she just didn’t understand what her job as a juror was.

Which juror is this? I want to see exactly what she said.
I've seen a lot of people reducing some of the jurors words to a single sentence when they actually said a lot more

kkloo · 12/09/2026 18:51

Palomiino · 12/09/2026 18:27

If I thought someone was insane I would say so - I would not say that everything got too much for them and they snapped - that is different.

What I personally think is that LC is a person with a cluster B presentation. Women with this type of presentation can seem like perfectionists with unreasonably high expectations of themselves and other people. When other people fell short of those things, they must be punished. I think she felt her children were showing her up to be a bad mother so she killed them. Makes no sense to anyone with empathy but to someone with a mask on, when that mask slips you see what they are capable of. For years, people like this can seem like a wonderful parent and they play the role of engaged and dedicated. But it is just an act.

She had neurotic personality traits when she was at university and these got worse with every child she birthed, she became less able to cope because of (in my opinion) her underlying personality disorder. She saw the children as her possessions and she didn’t want anyone else to look after them.

If you are a reasonable person and you know that having 3 children put a strain on your mental health, you don’t then start planning to have a fourth.

From the evidence in the trial, this is more likely than her being genuinely insane. And women don’t usually get PPP when their child is 8 months old. It’s usually very soon after birth. She would probably much prefer to spend her time in a psychiatric facility than jail.

@Palomiino
What disorder are you saying you think she has?
Cluster B presentation is doing a lot of work there without defining a disorder.

The behaviours you're describing don't uniquely point to Cluster B either.

The point you made about others falling short and her children showing her up and her needing to punish them is something you've just decided happened

DannyDeever · 12/09/2026 18:53

kkloo · 12/09/2026 18:42

Which juror is this? I want to see exactly what she said.
I've seen a lot of people reducing some of the jurors words to a single sentence when they actually said a lot more

Perhaps PP means this one:

"Initially I felt she was guilty and was criminally responsible for it. Maybe I still believe that in a certain way."

01:10:00

https://www.youtube.com/live/6NRxXhUud5g?si=-Ze89wELGF1BbrT-

placemats · 12/09/2026 18:58

BreatheAndFocus · 12/09/2026 17:38

I still find the Massachusetts system utterly bizarre. This is a genuine and serious question: does Massachusetts have a list of approved MH conditions that you can claim made you unable to stop yourself breaking the law, even though you understood what you were about to do was against the law?

If not, then surely someone can claim something like intense anger or sadness or frustration meant they couldn’t stop themselves? They could, if necessary, make that sound better by adding in a MH condition like depression, which caused the anger, sadness, frustration.

It's the Commonwealth of Massachusetts legally.

It's a state, with it's own laws. Last execution was in 1947. Abortion law is legal and accessible before 24 weeks as in state aid for payment.

https://www.mass.gov/orgs/governor-maura-healey-and-lt-governor-kim-driscoll

OP posts:
kkloo · 12/09/2026 19:01

DannyDeever · 12/09/2026 18:53

Perhaps PP means this one:

"Initially I felt she was guilty and was criminally responsible for it. Maybe I still believe that in a certain way."

01:10:00

https://www.youtube.com/live/6NRxXhUud5g?si=-Ze89wELGF1BbrT-

Edited

That's one of the jurors who people continuously misquote and reduce her to a single sentence and make claims she didn't understand reasonable doubt etc even though quite clearly she did going by what she said.

She essentially said initially she felt she was guilty of murder 1, and maybe she still does in a certain way but there was so much doubt, and too much grey area and then she said that eventually she felt like the only way to get justice for Cora, Dawson, Callan, Patrick and the other family members was to get Lindsay the help she needed.

So it sounds like initially she felt she was guilty of murder 1 but after seeing how much doubt there was, she finally settled more towards believing that the right and correct and just verdict was NGRI, even if a part of her still thought there was a chance she was mistaken.

This juror absolutely understood her job!

BreatheAndFocus · 12/09/2026 19:07

kkloo · 12/09/2026 18:30

The law said the defence can be raised when there is 'any evidence, which if believed, might create a reasonable doubt'.

Expert testimony isn't required, the evidence can even come from the circumstances of the crime, the defendants behaviour, the defendants own statements etc.

If the judge believes that there is literally no evidence at all that could create reasonable doubt then he won't give the instruction on criminal responsibility, so the jury will instead be told the defendant pleaded not guilty.

And then also the law states that the definition of a "mental disease or defect" does not include an abnormality manifested only by repeated criminal or otherwise antisocial conduct.

which would essentially rule out say a serial killer with a personality disorder, unless he had some other kind of mental disease or defect along with the personality disorder. He could still try the NGRI defence though but the prosecution will obviously keep emphasising how anti-social personality disorder does not satisfy the legal requirement according to the law and the judge will also be emphasizing the same in the jury instructions.

If not, then surely someone can claim something like intense anger or sadness or frustration meant they couldn’t stop themselves?

There's a provocation/heat of passion doctrine which is a mitigating circumstance that can reduce murder to voluntary manslaughter....but it must be the sort of thing that would cause a reasonable person to lose control, I would say the person may well have been temporarily insane at the time if something like that happens, but something like that doesn't count, it has to be the mental illness that caused the loss of control, not a circumstance.

Thank you for your reply @kkloo

Palomiino · 12/09/2026 19:09

kkloo · 12/09/2026 18:51

@Palomiino
What disorder are you saying you think she has?
Cluster B presentation is doing a lot of work there without defining a disorder.

The behaviours you're describing don't uniquely point to Cluster B either.

The point you made about others falling short and her children showing her up and her needing to punish them is something you've just decided happened

Just like Lindsay Clancy ‘decided’ she was hearing voices. There is no clinical evidence that she ever had psychosis - it’s something invented by the defence to get her off after the fact . Just like Casey Anthony’s lawyers decided to invent a story that Caylee drowned in the family swimming pool. Case closed.

I grew up with a narcissistic mother. I see a lot of parallels in behaviour. These people wear masks and have visibly poor mental health. And they struggle with being a parent but make it look like extreme care.

kkloo · 12/09/2026 19:22

Palomiino · 12/09/2026 19:09

Just like Lindsay Clancy ‘decided’ she was hearing voices. There is no clinical evidence that she ever had psychosis - it’s something invented by the defence to get her off after the fact . Just like Casey Anthony’s lawyers decided to invent a story that Caylee drowned in the family swimming pool. Case closed.

I grew up with a narcissistic mother. I see a lot of parallels in behaviour. These people wear masks and have visibly poor mental health. And they struggle with being a parent but make it look like extreme care.

What clinical evidence would you expect?

I don't know if she heard a voice or not, she may well not have and remember that she did seeing as clearly she was in an extreme mental state and then tried to kill herself, suffered a severe medical emergency, was unconscious, coded, was on sedatives and analgesics and in ICU, she may well have been having nightmares or hallucinations and they bled into her memories, we know that she said she remembered slashing the window screen when she didn't, so her memory of what happened may have very much been distorted without her consciously lying.

She didn't have visibly poor mental health at all until after she started the medication, Patrick emphasised that up until then she only had mild anxiety, that she was generally happy and socialising and having fun, he said yes she had some anxiety and stress but that she was 100 times worse after starting medication.

Palomiino · 12/09/2026 19:25

What is interesting to me is that despite ‘seeking MH support’, LC refused to engage with suggestions of talk therapy.

My mother is the same - she will keep on going to the doctor and what she wants to hear from the doctor is that she’s a victim and her whole family have let her down and it’s our fault she’s stressed all the time and we have ‘made her ill’.

The doctor almost always says that she has poor mental health and needs treatment and therapy and she refuses to engage with it because she thinks she’s above it.

Things can appear a certain way from the outside world. My mum tried to physically assault me and then later said evil spirits were responsible.

She is a messed up, neurotic person but she is not insane and she wears a mask in polite society and held down decent jobs for many years etc.

kkloo · 12/09/2026 19:26

also @Palomiino
The case is nothing like the Casey Anthony case, and important to note that Resnick was retained by the Casey Anthony case and said that he could not be helpful

Palomiino · 12/09/2026 19:27

LC had documented depression and anxiety at university and had treatment for that.

With every child, she became more unwell because when you’re a parent you’re supposed to take care of other people and get no thanks for it.

These people need to be over appreciated and want to hear praise all the time.

Palomiino · 12/09/2026 19:28

kkloo · 12/09/2026 19:26

also @Palomiino
The case is nothing like the Casey Anthony case, and important to note that Resnick was retained by the Casey Anthony case and said that he could not be helpful

My point is that lawyers invent things to get people off. Especially in America.

kkloo · 12/09/2026 19:54

Palomiino · 12/09/2026 19:27

LC had documented depression and anxiety at university and had treatment for that.

With every child, she became more unwell because when you’re a parent you’re supposed to take care of other people and get no thanks for it.

These people need to be over appreciated and want to hear praise all the time.

This sounded short-lived and is pretty common in college.

There are more ordinary explanations for a pattern of worsening around successive pregnancies and post partum periods. Bipolar II is one of them, which is what she's actually been diagnosed with.

Where are the examples of how she needed to be over appreciated and wanted to hear praise all the time?

If you're arguing for some kind of narcissistic collapse then you're going to have to show some kind of evidence that she was a narcissist before that.

Palomiino · 12/09/2026 20:25

I don’t have to show anything. I didn’t say I’m definitely right, I said it’s my opinion which I’m entitled to have based on what I’ve heard in the case and my own experience of narcissistic family members.

I don’t believe LC was insane and I think she should be locked up to prevent her having 3 more children that she goes on to kill, like Constance Fisher. I’m glad her husband divorced her.

Psychiatrists often diagnose people with bipolar 2 because it’s possible to medicate it. They are often wrong. If you look at some of the symptoms they are the same as cluster B disorders, ie NPD, ASPD and Borderline.

I was diagnosed with bipolar 2 and the diagnosis was removed after it was discovered that I’m autistic.

kkloo · 12/09/2026 20:31

Palomiino · 12/09/2026 20:25

I don’t have to show anything. I didn’t say I’m definitely right, I said it’s my opinion which I’m entitled to have based on what I’ve heard in the case and my own experience of narcissistic family members.

I don’t believe LC was insane and I think she should be locked up to prevent her having 3 more children that she goes on to kill, like Constance Fisher. I’m glad her husband divorced her.

Psychiatrists often diagnose people with bipolar 2 because it’s possible to medicate it. They are often wrong. If you look at some of the symptoms they are the same as cluster B disorders, ie NPD, ASPD and Borderline.

I was diagnosed with bipolar 2 and the diagnosis was removed after it was discovered that I’m autistic.

Yes you don't at all unless you want people to engage with your theory. But of course you can have your own opinion.

Going forward I'll just stick to your other points and not engage with any point about personality disorders.

Palomiino · 12/09/2026 20:38

kkloo · 12/09/2026 20:31

Yes you don't at all unless you want people to engage with your theory. But of course you can have your own opinion.

Going forward I'll just stick to your other points and not engage with any point about personality disorders.

What makes you so convinced she had psychosis because I don’t see evidence of that at all. I think a lot of us were expecting to see evidence of that in the trial.

Palomiino · 12/09/2026 20:40

I do not think her reporting voices after the fact is evidence when dealing with a persons sneaky enough to make sure her husband left the house for a set amount of time so she could murder those children.

placemats · 12/09/2026 20:42

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Palomiino · 12/09/2026 20:44

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My mental health is fine, thank you but the fact you are making personal attacks against me shows you are the one who is triggered and doesn’t have much to add that is a reasonable argument.

Palomiino · 12/09/2026 20:46

In the Casey Anthony trial, the lawyer definitely did invent stuff like saying that Caylee drowned in the pool and saying that Casey’s dad abused her.

His tactic worked very well because she got off. The jury obviously felt that this diversion amounted to reasonable doubt.

placemats · 12/09/2026 21:12

Palomiino · 12/09/2026 20:44

My mental health is fine, thank you but the fact you are making personal attacks against me shows you are the one who is triggered and doesn’t have much to add that is a reasonable argument.

How was that a personal attack?

OP posts:
placemats · 12/09/2026 21:16

The trial of Lindsay Clancy hasn't triggered anything in my mental health which has never been unwell.

However I do know of women who have committed suicide post natal due to severe illness regarding their mental health and they had Bi-polar.

OP posts:
Palomiino · 12/09/2026 21:21

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placemats · 12/09/2026 21:21

Palomiino · 12/09/2026 20:46

In the Casey Anthony trial, the lawyer definitely did invent stuff like saying that Caylee drowned in the pool and saying that Casey’s dad abused her.

His tactic worked very well because she got off. The jury obviously felt that this diversion amounted to reasonable doubt.

The Casey Anthony trial has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

The trial did not take place in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Therefore comparisons are redundant.

OP posts:
placemats · 12/09/2026 21:22

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Well you reported me.

And why? How was my post unhelpful?

OP posts: