Conversation style - is this an English thing

[SE4mum]

I’m English but recently made a social group of friends from other countries through an activity - German, French and Indian. They’re lovely and what I’m going to say isn’t a problem- more of an observation.

I’ve noticed that when I say something mildly self deprecating, they tend to take it at face value rather than laugh it off.

For example, I’ve mentioned my son’s laziness regarding homework and my full fat Coke addiction. Now among my largely English school parent friendship group, that sort of thing would receive a ‘oh, same here’ or ‘you should see my kid!’ kind of response. But among my new friends, it’s more ‘oh dear, coke is terrible for you. Can you switch to water some of the time?’ or ‘oh no, you should tell his head of year about it and get them on board’

It’s made me wonder if my normal conversation might come across as weird to other cultures? They never seem to talk about themselves this way.

So if you are not English, is this something you’ve noticed and how does it make you feel? Is it annoying?

Ps in case I sound insular and wide-eyed - I’m mixed race (but born and raised in England), I’ve travelled a lot, worked abroad, and am not naive to other cultures, but this is something that has weirdly just become apparent to me

Because people jump on you, that's why!

Lots of mners are from very white middle class areas but they spent a year of uni living in London next door to an Asian family and now they're back in their villages feeling like they're the only multicultural person around!
Those of us who are very 'british' in personality but from multi-ethnic areas with mixed race families feel like we need a disclaimer sometimes.

@auburnbatflightme too! A fabulously British response

LOL to ‘how many kilos is that’ - just brilliant

Definitely. I learned from a lovely Texan friend many years ago that the correct response to a personal compliment was "Thank you!" not a self-deprecating rant.

I’m not English and I’m totally on board witj this kind of communication. In fact, the constant education and advice from any randoms (not the close friends I asked) was one of the reasons I left my home country.

This is Kate Fox in Watching the English -- one bit on the female 'compliment and counter-compliment ritual' (whereas she says that men bond via saying 'Mine is Better Than Yours' with the 'mine' being anything from a football team to a brand of beer to a holiday destination, car etc) the other on what she calls 'the rule of Not Being Earnest':

(1)
Observing the many variations of this ritual, and often participating as well, I noticed that the compliments are not exchanged at random, but often in a distinctive pattern, in accordance with what I came to call the ‘counter-compliment rule’. The pattern is as follows. The opening line may be either a straight compliment, such as ‘Oh, I like your new haircut!’ or a combination of a compliment and a self-critical remark: ‘Your hair looks great. I wish I had gorgeous hair like you – mine’s so boring and mousy.’

The counter-compliment rule requires that the response to either version contain a self-deprecating denial, and a ‘counter-compliment’, as in ‘Oh, no! My hair’s terrible. It gets so frizzy – I wish I could have it short like you, but I just don’t have the bone structure. You’ve got such good cheekbones.’ This must be countered with another self-critical denial, and a further compliment, which prompts yet another self-deprecating denial and yet another counter-compliment, and so the ritual continues.

There are social ‘points’ to be gained by making amusing, witty, self-critical remarks – some English women have turned this kind of humorous self-deprecation into an art form, and there can almost be an element of competitiveness in their one-downmanship.

(2)

At the most basic level, an underlying rule in all English conversation is the proscription of ‘earnestness’. Although we may not have a monopoly on humour, or even on irony, the English are probably more acutely sensitive than any other nation to the distinction between ‘serious’ and ‘solemn’, between ‘sincerity’ and ‘earnestness’.

This distinction is crucial to any kind of understanding of Englishness. I cannot emphasise this strongly enough: if you are not able to grasp these subtle but vital differences, you will never understand the English – and even if you speak the language fluently, you will never feel or appear entirely at home in conversation with the English. Your English may be impeccable, but your behavioural ‘grammar’ will be full of glaring errors.

[...] Seriousness is acceptable; solemnity is prohibited. Sincerity is allowed; earnestness is strictly forbidden. Pomposity and self-importance are outlawed. Serious matters can be spoken of seriously, but one must never take oneself too seriously.

Yep - I get this 😂

There are cultural differences around problem solving vs feeling heard by others. It isn’t a major problem you want them to solve: You are just wanting others to connect with your experience.

Either you provide all the info and get accused of including irrelevant info because of personal bias. Or you don't and get accused of drip feeding. You can't win

I do think the self deprecating thing (like a lot of British and English/Welsh/Scottish traits) aren't actually dependent on living in a city/rurally, class or race/background. It's a British/English cultural thing. (I'm wondering now if it is more specifically English than British and trying to work out if Scottish/Welsh people are more/less self deprecating or do it in a different way. Hmmmm).

I’m American but have lived in England for close to 20 years. I get it and appreciate it if done in small doses, but it gets tiresome. “Yes, Deirdre, you do look like Suzie Quattro’s fat nan!” Also the one-upmanship: “You might look like her fat nan but I look like her da!”

I'm not from the UK (but from an Anglo country) and I've noticed the same. I once was working in our US office and my British boss said to a US colleague 'I'm just over the moon' about something big she had achieved. She was quite disgruntled until I explained that this was UK-speak for what she did was bloody amazing, fantastic and all the other plaudits she rightly deserved. She genuinely felt he didn't give a shit.

I then had an enjoable 6 months or so where my US colleagues would come to me to ask me to 'translate' English-isms.

Good times. Great colleagues. Sigh. Miss that workplace.

@Persephonia1966i think maybe, from my limited personal experience, it IS more an English thing - I am actually now recalling an Irish colleague who would respond along the lines of ‘Christ, woman, what are you like?’ Whenever I recounted minor slip ups eg ‘I can’t believe I forgot to pack my lunch for the second time this week’

The British sense of humour is definitely a thing.

I lived in Australia for a while and it seemed to me the Aussies and Kiwis have a great balance on this issue. Lots of dry and sarcastic humour so plenty of good banter, but less playfully putting yourself down all the time. It taught me just to smile and say ‘thank you’ to a compliment. It makes for a much simpler and quicker interaction that’s actually less about you!

Yes, I do think that it is rather British culture specific but also, possibly, a bit class specific. Self deprecative humour tends to be more common in either more working class people and in a strange twist also the more wealthy, although it stems from the same ultimate defence mechanism. Fear of being mocked, so getting in there first.

You could say, that just to use a cultural example who has been in the news lately, sadly because she has just died - Dolly Parton - used self deprecating humour or humor as almost her default communication style but was as American as could be. An American icon, you could say. I don't think she would have argued that she came from a working class background.

On the other hand, although he's keen to tell us all how middle class he is, (like a lot of politians do) Emmanuel Macron, who attended Sciences Po and worked for the Rothschild's Bank before being elected Président can be quite dry and self mocking.

It's hard to generalise. Sometimes you just meet people in a certain work or social setting who are more literal minded.

I bet ambulance crews in downtown Minneapolis, Munich, Marseille or Manchester have more or less the same gallows humour jokes roughly translated but I'm guessing the same cities have their dour and earnest social circles too.

Not to say that there isn't a paramedic in Salford who thinks irony is similar to coppery and will happily take your blood pressure for you after those worrying, "Full Fat" cokes, whilst telling you that coca cola doesn't have any fat in it and you meant sugar. As in glucose. Not to mention that what with the state of the world today, it would have been helpful if you had specified the beverage rather than the controlled substance.

And yeah, I know about the Salford and Manchester thing.

I think that is the point the OP is making.

I feel like I’m missing something because I don’t understand where’s the humour/self deprecating bit on that example, but I am not British and I have noticed I have a very different reaction to certain things compared to his friends and family. A bit like your friends, thing that would concern me/not be okay and they just laugh it off. I thought it was his circle though, not necessarily a cultural thing, but I’m probably wrong!

I’m from the UK but I’m autistic and the social bonding / small talk stuff doesn’t really come naturally to me. I find it a bit awkward and draining, even though I know the “rules”. I usually just thank people if they give me a compliment! I have lived abroad though and do notice that many non-Brits can’t tell when I’m joking. Humour in general seems to be a play a bigger role in conversations for British people and my German colleagues for example were often more serious and less lighthearted in conversation.

Yes, there’s something of a similar habit amongst Australians, although it’s less internalised- communal insulting of each other as an indication of affection.

to PP saying can you generalise on the basis of race? Absolutely- this isn’t a “race” thing as such, it’s a cultural norm. I understand why being autistic may make that difficult- but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t unwritten rules about social cues.

i could very easily go to the pub in Australia, see a very good friend, say “how’s it going ya dickhead?” and it be received in totally good humour as a friendly greeting. Funnily enough, if I was interested in indicating how little I like someone “they’re a little bit of a bastard.”

as an Aussie transplant over here, I found the self-deprecating thing quite odd. Because when I followed the old Australian cue’s people got horribly offended that I called them fuckwits. I JUST THOUGHT I WAS BEING NICE.

edited for autocorrection

I have moved to a quite wealthy, posh upper middle class area (no stealth boast) and no one here self deprecates at all. British / English people here are very assertive, don't take crap are quite direct and never put themselves or their dc down. Especially not their dc, they highlight how well they do, what great schools they are in, how proud they are. Where I lived before, in London, it was definitely more of a thing. I am not British myself.

But why do we run ourselves down? Repeatedly doing that influences your opinion of yourself, positive reinforcement in reverse. If you continually tell others (and yourself) that you are fat or stupid your brain will believe you.

I'd call that, "Aspirational anxiety." They're on the social up and it's no joking matter. They're working very hard to get ahead.

But they were joking with you / messing / slagging you obviously, not being critical 😁

Irish people are very self-deprecating too.

Yes, exactly, it's a slightly variant version, but the Irish colleague got what the OP was saying in telling her she'd forgotten her lunch again -- she was escalating it in a humorous/friendly slagging way.

She knew the OP wasn't looking for a lecture on using lists or phone alarms to help her memory, or on the importance of lunch nutritionally.

Im Irish and we do the same thing. I recently moved to an American reporting line at work and I have had to completely change how I communicate.

Equally they are more open about their personal lives and im too Irish to handle that! Ill say giod morning how are you and ill get a story about some deeply difficult custody battle or divorce they are going through. Just say im fine and move on!

This. I don't do it because I find it annoying....Like the "what am I like" woman in Outnumbered.