Terror attack on Berlin Pride

[HermioneWeasley]

police are looking for a suspect with Islamist links.

yesterday I saw that islamic bookshops run by the Muslim brotherhood (who are banned in Egypt and I think the UAE) are bringing “workers” over on skilled worker visas. The UAE has stopped government scholarships to British universities because they are worried about their young people being radicalised here!

islamic terrorism is a problem. 75% of Mi5’s watch list are Muslim.

how do we remain a safe and tolerant place for the many peaceful Muslims while still retaining our values and safety?

Berlin Pride attack: suspect named after one killed and 16 injured

www.thetimes.com/article/470b9315-80aa-4c5f-92e5-2bc2ef91b02b?shareToken=2f519edb5016673a387a427079f51e9d

I was called an Islamic terrorist sympathiser for coreecting a fact. Maybe ask MN to remove your comment?

read my posts fgs

i did not
i gave Gaza as an example of a place of long term trauma
I posted a link with others

fgs
do people on here not read the bloody thread
or at least relevant posts

I think a lot on here think that empathy for traumatic lives means that if those lives are Muslims
i must be blaming Israel
God forbid should people actually not give a toss about what religion they are
I don’t
I care for the lives of people

Complete lack of comprehension
and acceptance of facts

You were the person who blamed Israel for Islamic terrorism. On page 1 you said: "When we look at what Israel is doing in Gaza they are creating a future generation of traumatised and potentially dangerous individuals. We, the U.K., and most countries around the world are not standing up to that.

Our modus operandi will be to blame the very people we are abandoning
and then we will wonder, again, why they are being aggressive into the future again and again".

And if you read my subsequent posts and the article I tagged you’ll see others are mentioned too

If you read the post and subsequent explanations by me you’ll also see I explained it as an example
It’s a relevant example as a place if long term trauma
It’s a current long term and ongoing situation so currently very relevant to posting here about ongoing problems

Had I posted 100 years ago I’d chose a relevant example to that period in time

I have explained This already

Move away from peoples religion and see the facts
Understanding the nuance rather than assuming I am ‘blaming’ anyone is key

I’m posting and explaining facts here
If people don’t like them then that is very worrying moving forward

You very clearly are blaming Israel and rushed onto the thread to do so on page 1.

You don't have to put "blaming" around what you said. The blame was clear when you said "When we look at what Israel is doing in Gaza they are creating a future generation of traumatised and potentially dangerous individuals".

I didn’t rush anywhere 😆

I came on with relevant facts about trauma etc
If People don’t like those facts then it’s tough really

I do wonder why though
Facts are everything

Im afraid you have completely missed the point of my post, despite explanations, but I can’t help with that I’m afraid
🤷‍♀️

Maybe the issue is that all that posts about malnutrition and trauma are really not on point on this thread so getting people mixed up and onfused about what they have to do with homegrown terrorists.

They don't have anything to do with homegrown terrorists but the immediate pivot to blame Israel was telling.

Intergenerational trauma, when ongoing, is exactly on point and perfectly on thread

It explains how easily people can be radicalised if the root problem is not dealt with
ie the trauma stops

As I have explained This is one area that could be healed and there is historical precedent for this looking closer to home

Again, how was Abdul B, who was born in Germany, more ‘intergenerationally traumatised’ than Ukranian refugees escaping an actual war zone? How often do you see them committing terror attacks?

@DrPrunesqualer was there a spike in crime in Germany after WW2 or in Korea after the end of the Korean War?
I think in those countries the citizens were just desperate to try to rebuild their counties and their lives.

I think you are assuming everyone reacts the same
Not every Irish person joined the IRA for example

The Ukrainian issue isn’t inter generational ( yet and hopefully it won’t be )

People who haven’t personally experienced long term or inter generational trauma are another matter.

They could be radicalised online by those who have
We don’t know

Of course everyone reacts differently on an individual level, but if an increased number of certain crimes are committed by a particular group, why ignore it? Why pretend that we just don’t know?

The Ukrainian issue isn’t inter generational ( yet and hopefully it won’t be )

So people fleeing an actual war zone are somehow less traumatised than someone who was born and raised in a Western country, because his ‘trauma’ is ‘intergenerational’?
At what point does ‘intergenerational trauma’ stop providing excuses for someone’s actions?
Especially given that there are plenty of actually traumatised people who somehow manage not to ram vehicles into Prise parades and Christmas markets?

please read my posts

the Ukrainian issue isn’t inter generational
It just isn’t because generations havent experienced it
It’s a completely different type of trauma ( no less worthy of recognition obvs ).

If you read my posts I’ve already replied to someone who mentioned the children of kindertransport.

RTT please and you will see
your examples are not relevant to my posts

I’ve read your posts.

Few people have suffered as much intergenerational trauma as Jewish people. Presumably all their actions in Israel can be explained by this, and we should have a great deal of sympathy for them. Those that survived the holocaust thought they were finally safe, only to be invaded by their neighbours. Those same neighbours have proceeded to attack them non-stop in the intervening years, even overwhelmingly voting in political parties with the sole ambition of murdering them all. This is after centuries of oppression, abuse and genocide wherever they tried to settled, all across the world. And then when they finally thought they might have found peace, when neighbouring countries were accepting them and even the terrorists next door seemed to be working with them, they were attacked, raped and murdered. By the very people to whom they had cautiously started to extend the hand of friendship. Considering all that, they must be a truly remarkable bunch to not be driving cars into crowds, bombing little girls or beheading strangers. Or even burning mosques or massacring Muslims. Though not sure why the palestinians aren't expected to be able to control themselves as well? Do you consider them inferior in some way to Jews?

You also make an extremely good case for why we shouldn't be allowing traumatised refugees into this country. I would absolutely agree that if people suffering trauma, intergenerational or otherwise, are more likely to commit violent crimes, they should be kept well away, and any who have slipped in should probably be removed at the earliest opportunity. Though you say not everyone can be expected to behave in the same way, so are you really claiming it is only Muslims who have this reaction? Are you arguing for only them to be barred?

And as the terrorist in this case was presumably not suffering his own trauma as he was born and raised in Germany long after his parents' country's civil war was over, I'm not sure why he would be compared to a palestinian currently growing up inside a war. You claim you didn't comment only to criticise Israel, so could you please explain exactly what point you were trying to make by connecting the two, and how can intergenerational trauma explain the actions of this particular terrorist. Or are you arguing that any Muslim whose parents might have suffered anything at all traumatic, ever, are a risk? That's an awful lot of people we should be very nervous of then, according to your argument! What do you think we should we do about them...?

So literally nothing is their fault? : Intergenerational trauma' made them do it, but even they haven't got intergenerational trauma then someone who has got it could have radicalised them? So White Ukrainians and Irish people have agency and are capable of overcoming actual trauma to make good decisions but brown people are all a victim of circumstance and have no control over their tiny nutrient starved easily influenced brains so any thoughts or opinions they have are not their own, it's the fault of other people who lived 80-100 years ago. Got it.

Well said @callmej the Jewish people would have been a great example of those suffering intergenerational trauma.

Is Jewish terrorism a huge threat? I think not.

Remember that in the UK the biggest terrorist threat according to MI5 is Islamic Terrorism followed by Northern Ireland related terrorism then Extreme right wing terrorism and finally Left wing, anarchist and single-issue terrorism.

re Palestinian
it was an example of long term trauma not yet dealt with and ongoing obviously

I have noted This makes people more susceptible to radicalisation
This is a fact
That doesn’t mean all are radicalised as I have also mentioned
Nor does it mean to be radicalised you must have experienced trauma
because, as I have already said and obviously we are not all the same

A period of environmental and economic stability ( for example ) and healing and personal autonomy around us can, over time , reduce the affects of trauma.
For some current generations of people that hasnt happened yet
For some current generations of people it is

You also make an extremely good case for why we shouldn't be allowing traumatised refugees into this country.

Well, exactly. I really don’t understand how people like pp don’t see that they’re not doing genuine refugees any favours by painting trauma, and even more so, intergenerational trauma, as something that makes irrational, violent behaviour understandable.
Why would any host society want to put up with that?

Many do say that the trauma of the Holocaust helped shape what has happened in Palestine, from the raping, killing and terrorism Jewish people committed in the Nakba through to the present day violence.

I doubt DrPrunesqualer will be rushing to justify any of that.

You think this is the first time Ukraine have been invaded?

You haven't explained how this relates to the German terrorist, which is what the thread is about. What does a palestinian child growing up in a war zone have to do with a German child growing up in a safe, prosperous country? Where's the connection? Why did you mention palestine at all? You might have well as mentioned Sudan, which is also nowhere near Germany and also a completely different environment to the one this man was raised in. In fact, there are loads of places that are nowhere near Germany and are nothing like the 2000s German society this bloke experienced. So why palestine?

And if you were going to mention a people suffering ongoing trauma who might therefore be more likely to be radicalised in the future, why do you say the palestinians rather than the Israelis? Why do you deem the palestinians more likely to become terrorists than the Israelis? Again, do you deem them inferior in some way, in that they are more likely to resort to violence, vengeance and barbarism than Israelis are?

As we know, the vast majority of terrorist attacks are committed by Muslims, though it's very difficult to see how they might be defined as the most traumatised group of people on Earth. So why are they so much more likely to have this response than any other group of people, why aren't we seeing anything like this kind of behaviour from any other 'traumatised' group? Are you really claiming there is something within the Muslim mentality that causes this, even from people of completely different nationalities and backgrounds, and even when they themselves haven't suffered any trauma whatsoever? Because that's really quite a statement...