Ukraine Invasion: Part 43

[MagicFox]

With thanks as usual to everyone!

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It's not a war crime unless they are used against civilians, as the Russians have done repeatedly.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/7/7/what-are-cluster-munitions#:~:text=The%20use%20of%20cluster%20bombs%20itself%20does%20not%20violate%20international,taken%20to%20avoid%20civilian%20casualties.

US used clusterbombs repeatedly in Afghanistan killing many civilians. Not convinced USA have learnt any lessons since then.

@headstone Ukraine aren't planning to use them against their own civilians, so what's your point?

Ukraine will be using them on their own country against invaders and will have to shoulder the clean up after to protect their own citizens.
Why do you think they won't do it as responsibly as possible?

It's not a war crime unless they are used against civilians, as the Russians have done repeatedly.

Very much agreed.

Historically Cluster Munitions, initially mainly air dropped, e.g. BL755, were the weapon of choice with many NATO nations when the threat to Europe was masses of Soviet Tanks and Infantry heading across the Inner German Border (scenario sound at all familiar and perhaps relevant?).

It may be a coincidence, maybe not, that efforts to control/ban the things only really started getting a head of steam after some in the west thought the threat of a Soviet assault had gone, so by signing up to the convention money could be saved by removing them from the stockpile and there was of course some sort of "look at us, leading the world in getting rid of these weapons" feel good factor....

Cynical..Moi??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL755

Surplus because there is going to be no end to this conflict and the weapons used are just going to get worse and worse.

Russia has been using cluster munitions from the start of the invasion unashamedly against civilians.

How is Ukraine using them against invading military making things worse?

Surplus because regardless of who uses them they are really awful weapons. Human beings should be striving against such things and that is why this is being widely criticised.

https://twitter.com/golub/status/1677725126429753345 this must be a joke surely. Ukraine to replace Hungary at NATO conference

well yes, tell that the Russians eh?

The Azovstal defenders returning home

https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1677753506416009217

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1677749875922944006 500 days of war in photo's

All weapons designed to kill and maim are really awful.

There is only one reason so many are being used in Ukraine, because Russia invaded and for Ukrainian citizens that means torture, rape, child abduction

Well, no. I don't think anyone has said that

If they clear trenches of murdering, genocidal, invading bastards, I'm fine with that

or just ordinary people, who knows really. These weapons don’t discriminate. Anyway it’s easy to dehumanise the enemy but I doubt western soldiers are any better or Ukrainian soldiers. War is nothing but legalised murder.

eh? very.... inexperienced aren't you?

Time to grow up a bit lass. And do some research, or keep with blind sweet romantic thoughts that every soldier is as bad as the next.

Well as the Ukrainian soldiers will be noting where they are firing and prioritising clean ups once the murderers are gone back to their own country Im quite relaxed that they'll be used appropriately

And with respect, GTF with the both siding

The russians are savages

Are you aware that Ukraine has given written assurances to the US that they will keep track of where they use the cluster bombs and clean them up after?

Of course, the Russians aren't kind enough to do that with the MILLIONS of land mines they left.

And the grenades they attach to children's toys, and the chemical weopons they use - would you like photos of the phosphorus bombs they use on civilians?

If you seriously think that Ukrainians rape, torture, kidnap and murder their own people, you are flatly off your head.

In terms of the OP thread guidance, I don't think that one recent new poster is adding anything constructive, so I'm going to ignore him or her going forward.

FWIW, I expressed mild concern on the last thread about the future consequences of the small proportion of potentially unexploded cluster bombs and "experts" on these threads (who've proved themselves over these many threads unlike certain newcomers ) reassured me. As well as the promised proper mapping of usage by Ukraine, they also pointed out that the proportion of "duds" is much less in the Western supplied munitions than those that have been used indiscriminately (and filmed as such) by the Russians.

Would I prefer that cluster munitions were not used? Yes. By both sides.

Do I understand why Ukraine has asked the US for supplies to support its counter offensive (ie trying to regain its own territory? HELL YES.

tbh anyone who sayd 'both sides are as bad as each other' hasn't bothered to do the slightest bit of research. Not even the slightest.

Made me cry.

So happy they are finally going home.

@blueshoes It was very emotional and I admit I shed a tear

How healthy they looked too.

Erdogan is a wily fox. I'm loving the vatnik frothing on social media

None of the British soldiers that I know are raping murderous bastards who would shoot their own people in the back for retreating. The British army frowns upon that sort of behaviour and tends to prosecute those involved, unlike the Russian army who seem to see it as something to aspire to.

The Ukrainians have spent enough time hanginging out with western military for them to behave humanely.

To insinuate that all soldiers are as bad as the Russians shows you up.

@headstone

UN report on how Russians soldiers were given viagra to help rape Ukrainian women

https://nypost.com/2022/10/15/russia-is-giving-soldiers-viagra-to-rape-ukrainians-un-official/

Do you really think Ukrainians are issuing soldiers with viagra to do the same?

Do you really think that Ukrainian soldiers are putting severed heads on spikes, the way Russians are? one example: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/06/footage-appears-show-head-ukrainian-pow-stuck-pole