Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #62

Think that is Nick Wallis.

Two fucks a bitch and a eunuch. Quite a morning.

Looks like Nick Wallis.

So that's Nick Wallis.

That was TT yesterday. Saw hair described as 'white', frankly she prefers silver blonde, if anyone is asking.

Silver blonde woman gone to look at the bundle.

And a partridge in a pear tree!

Thank you. That's what I wondered..
If it is I'm glad he has a comfortable and practical place to live tweet from.

If only TT and Michael Foran were able to be in the room so they could hear properly. I think MF said he planned to be there, but when Sandie Peggie's sister said that she might not be able to be present because there would not be an overflow room he applied to be an Observer instead.

I'm looking forward to Nick Wallis's write up of that lot! 😳😬😂

And no sound issues! (Although the sound has been a lot better this morning)

The fundamental issue for SP as per Foran’s analysis is that, RCN were captured so only ever saw SP as a person who acted wrongfully and needed support but as the perpetrator, of harassment, they were blinded by this and failed to see the real issue.

which was the cause of SP having to seek outside advice.

so a defence they are running is they did give the support needed, and did not give legal support because she already had it. A bit chicken and egg.

but the capture has just now been proven.

I've just got a call and need to leave at 11.45 for about 45 mins. Can anyone take over the c&p at that time?

This is riveting.

I am also a “silver blonde”.

but the capture has just now been proven.

(edit - by NC and by you)

Exactly! Good point well made.

I do like this witness, she's clear in her speech and in what she says. Perhaps this might be a reflection of what she does for a living, I don't mean to cast any shade on other witnesses by it.

Yes, this testimony plus SFs own notes paint quite the picture...

yes

Just plopping to say thanks to all the transcribers and copy-pasters. Your work is much appreciated!

#TheFiferAbides

Brilliant! Thanks!

Thanks @BettyBooper @fanOfBen

@Boiledbeetle Giz a snowball, i ate all mine 😰

We recommence with cross examination of Lisa Mackenzie by David Hay.

DH Good morning. I represent RCN in this case. Shouldn't be too long. Will try to keep voice up.
DH you were employed as policy officer at RCN. Background in policy and comms.
LM Yes
DH Not a nurse, for eg
LM No
DH You worked with NP from time to time.
LM Yes. RCN split in two

Looking at Nick’s live tweets, I don’t think DH’s approach is going to do his client many favours really.

LM NP was in employee relations.
DH And knew SP. He accompanied you to meeting
LM Yes. Both GMB members. SP was my rep.
DH Part of role as policy officer, was assisting in development RCN policies. And members, eg surveys?
LM Yes
DH Your contract of employment. p673
DH Your t&c of employment. Clause 11 - 11.2 - mustn't act against RCN interests or engage in other business activities without permission. Also, mustn't write articles contributing to publications in contrast to RCN policies or could damage RCN reputation.
DH T&C issued to you Sept 2017
LM Sounds right.
DH Your article, inc consideration of 2 case studies. Second study - examines Scot prison policy on t prisoners.
LM Yes
DH In article, p 696, re Scottish prison service - is critique of SPS and t prisoners
LM re management of t prisoners, yes
DH [reads c policy failure/capture] Just above conclusion.
DH Your role inc engaging with external agencies. A number of external stakeholders you might deal with.
LM Yes
DH And at time this inc engaging with SPS
LM Yes, had prisons in my portfolio

DH [to docs] p 730 Mr Provan [?] setting out that your RCN inc prison service and might conflict though difficult to assess if so. In NP's mind?
LM Yes
DH Re managing potential conflict of your activities. You have letter from NP re potential conflict in your possession
LM yes

DH NP might say in evidence he recollects getting on well with you.
LM Yes, we did. I liked him
DH He liked you too. NP didn't see any animosity between you and him after this process had come to an end.
LM That's very fair.
DH You spoke to pp 24-30. In context of your evidence re event at Edinburgh university. A presentation in advance of publication of article.
LM I was in audience. One of my colleagues was presenting.
DH Event organised by Edin university
LM By academics working there.
DH Not organised by RCN in any way
LM No

<shoves last 3 in gob>

Mmmfyghnmijgvbnj

<wipes mouth>

Sorry Hedge I've just eaten the last one.

From Nick Wallis

[LM is sworn]
NC you were an RCN Scotland Policy Officer Oct 2017 until 9 Sep 2019
LM yes
NC how did you get involved in sex and gender debate
LM I got calls as a policy officer asking me about the placement of male prisoners on the female estate and I started reflecting on that plus I got interested in the proposed reforms to the Gender Recognition Act (GRA)
David Hay for the RCN does the cross-examination (xe) of LM
DH we know you were a policy officer with the RCN and you have a background in policy in comms to late 90s?
LM correct
DH you are not a nurse
LM no, i am not a nurse
DH you worked with Norman Provan (NP) - had some interactions with him.
LM NP was deputy head with responsibility for employment relations so yes
DH you knew Stuart Fraser (SF) because he accompanied you to the meeting
LM yes he was my rep
DH part of your role as a policy officer (PO) would be in assisting in dev of RCN policies
LM yes and govt submissions
DH and staff engagement policies
LM yes
DH please go to p673 - that's the start of your T&C of employment - go to p675 - there is clause 11 entitled Timed Attention with three subclauses - 11.2 says you "must not act against the interests of RCN" and you must not engage in other business activity without permish
of head of dept and you must not write articles in which you express views which are or may be against the views of the RCN or might damage it unless you have permish from head of department
LM yes
DH and looking at that they were issued to you on 27 Sep 2017.
LM yes
DH lets go to p686/7 in your article you considered two case studies. 2nd case study on p687 - intro section the second case study was looking at scottsh prison service policy on TG prisoners.
DH let's go to 696 - the body of the article - heading 3 - Scottish Prison Service (SPS) - within the body of the article there is a critique of SPS management of TG prisonsers.
LM yes
DH on p701 most "pointedly" - looking at the par starting "in an organisation..."
SPS is a "policy failure" and an example of "capture"
LM yes
DH now as part of your role you'd be engaging with external agencies - stakeholders
LM yes
DH and your portfolio included engaging with the SPS
LM "I had prisons in my portfolio, yes"
DH p727 NP's outcome letter - look at p730 we can see at the top of that page that NP is setting out his concs in respect of the investigation was that your portfolio did include prisons
LM yes
DH I appreciate you mentioned in evidence there was a discussion of the managing of a potential conflict over your activities - you had this letter from NP - where he specifically raises prisons
LM yes
DH now NP is gpoing to give evidence - I anticipate he might say as part of his evidence he recollects working and getting on well with you
LM "I did - I liked Norman"
DH "he liked you"
LM [laughs] "that's nice to hear."

DH There were notable remonstrations - that's my understatement. You came to realise that one individual was author of tweets we looked at
LM yes
DH These tweets run to May 2019. Can you help re when Edin university took place
LM First week June 2019.
DH Early June - first time encountered EM
LM May have seen tweets prior to event.
DH How came to your attention
LM From memory FWS may have shared them. Ppl often shared threats women faced when wanting to speak about these issues.
DH You told your Lm about this. You were concerned