Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #62

Nick Wallis's tweets are a fuller record at the moment - he is in the room so not suffering the same sound issues.

I was about to say the same - I'll carry on pasting TT for continuity (and can't do both), but if someone else would like to c&p Nick that might be useful!

I've heard of malicious compliance, which sounds similarish. In fact, I've used it myself, when someone seemed to be trying to stitch me up with selective recording. It worked.

Not on twitter it would be good if someone did that

From TT:

NC = Margaret Gibbon (SP's sol) note on conversation with NP. Quotes Industrial strateic role ISR for union (U). "I told him a legal claim was likely to be raised" Anything come of that ?
SP - Yes a ISR.
NC -Did anything happen?
SP No.

SP First time I met SF at disciplinary mtg and first time met Charlotte Miles (CM). CM told me suspension was being lifted and askked if i'd be happy to work in another area.
I said no . I loved my job and didn't want to work elsewhere.

SP - SF took notes. He asked if I'd work in minor injuries. I felt he was pushing for me to work in another dept as well.
NC - How did you feel?
SP _ Not supported. taking the doctor's side not mine.

Michael Foran is in, too

https://x.com/michaelpforan/status/2102672878852563389

From TT:

NC - this doc disclose abuse at hands of yr GP.and SF is copied in.
Any follow up from SF?
SP - No

NC - who helped you draft statements for disciplinary?
SP _ My solicitor.
SF wuite happy for sol to represent me.

NC - what info was MG asking SF for? What was she asking SF to press the board for
SP - asking them to find out if any other female staff uncomfortable with the doctor in the CR
NC - read last sentence of main para in that letter

Blood boiling now,

From TT:

J - handed a note, informed of online noise issues
[Microphones moved]
NC - board has ample info about DU's work history, what was that about
SP - I had heard that he had made a complaint about an elderly lady that had misgendered him, called him son

SP and another instance, where asking about CRs, he made people uncomfortable, people treading on ice
NC to your knowledge did SF press Fife to ix?
SP - no

We knew that Sandie Peggie had suffered a sexual assault in the past, but did we know it was by her GP?

Yes

Thank you.

It's an additional reason why she would not want to undress with a male doctor in her changing room - which no woman should have to do anyway.

Why oh why do women have to disclose sexual abuse just to even get a glance of sympathy FFS

From TT:

NC - email from SF to you, setting up call, do you remember that call
SP yes
NC - why do you remember
SP I was at my mother and father's house, my dad was dying, he passed away the next day, I don't remember much of the call, distressed

SP - SF said Norman Provan would be dealing with my case.

NC - now an email from NP, when did you first read that
SP - later in August, asked by MG to find something else, I found it in my junk email box,
NC - August when?
SP - August 2025
NC - had RCN ever contacted you for

From TT:

SP - no never contacted me at all
NC 1st claim against NHS Fife part heard, listed for further hearing in July/August & September 2025, that's a letter from you to NP, can you explain why you sent it
SP I had been made aware that MG had said in the first hearing, able to sue the

hospital for further harassment and asked me to talk to RCN about help for a second claim
NC skipping over a great deal, documents exchanged between the parties, you're being ix by Nursing and MidWifery Council, who's helping you with that?

From TT:

SP - not the RCN. MG has been helping me
NC why not the RCN, they never offered any help
[microphone discussion, J pointed out that MG & SP whispering in front of microphone]
NC on the whispering, I would appreciate a quick break so that I can take instruction

[break]

Does that differ from malicious compliance?

I feel so sad for Sandie. It feels so tiring and sad going over it all again even from behind a screen. How awful to be so badly let down for so long.

edit: 2 typos

While we're on a break - so how does it work, for Naomi to take instruction during the time that Sandie is giving evidence? I thought you couldn't talk to anyone, including your own lawyers, while you were sworn in and giving evidence?

The obvious thing to wonder about, to my mind, is, Sandie said of the RCN that they never contacted her re the fitness to practise case that the NMC is apparently pursuing - she didn't say that she contacted them and they refused to help.

From Nick Wallis

Naomi Cunningham starts with the examination (e). The cross-examination (xe) by David Hay KC will follow but this I am told could run into the second day.
NC full name
SP Sandie Walker Peggie
NC member of RCN
SP 30 years
J please keep your voice up

NC in relation to the RCN it's right you've mostly dealt with Stuart Fraser, Norman Provan and Gillian Tate, their senior legal officer.
SP yes
NC in around Oct 2023 NHS Fife allowed Dr Upton to use the ladies changing room - how did this happen
SP DU started as a junior doctor

in the department and we were told he could use the changing room - there was a lot of tit tat "there was a few people who was uncomfortable with him using the area"

NC was there any disco about this before DU started in the dept
SP "there wasn't any"

NC you encountered DU x3 in the changing rooms in A&E and you complained after the first time and nothing was done - you say a lot of people were uncomf - how do you know
SP general chit chat in the dept

NC why did those people not support you in the last tribunal
SP I think it was fear
NC why
SP they'd seen the way I was treated by my employer

NC on third encounter with DU on xmas eve 2023 you insisted he should not be there as he was male and he refused to leave and suggested youtake that up with managers. Fair summary?
SP yes

NC you were due to work next on 30 Dec, but before that you were put on special leave after DU complained about you?
SP yes
NC when did you first contact the RCN
SP sent an email before 30 Dec and was told someone would get in touch

[goes to p319 in the main bundle which we can only see if we leave court and look up the right page and copy out its contents grouch grouch]
NC that's an RCN document headed Case Summary - it says case received 24 Dec 2023 - why that date - how could it have got that date

SP no idea -
NC so when do you think the RCN first became aware of this case
SP before 30 Dec
NC you were called by Stuart Fraser (SF) on 4 or 5 of Jan. What happened

SP pleasant call I told him what had happened, "he told me more or less that I was being disciplined because I had harassed Beth in the changing area" that the disc process takes 4 to 6 weeks and "I should more or less treat it as an extended holiday"

NC did you ask him any specific qs?
SP "not really. I just wanted his advice"
[go to p20 in the bundle]
NC short note presumably made by SF about that conversation. Is that a fair outline of what was said?
SP yes

NC pls turn to p370 of the bundle. That's an email 26 Au 2024 from MG. MG says SP should not be pressed by AG on disclosing ID of person who gave info in x pars - what was that info that MG was asking SF to investigate?

SP she was asking him to find out if there were any other female staff who felt uncomfortable with BU in the CR.
NC pls read the last sentence of the par in that letter.
[intervention as people watching remotely cannot hear what's being said. SP is v softly spoken]

NC what was it in DU's work history that MG wanted the board to investigate
SP I'd heard in his previous work he'd made a complaint about an elderly patient who had misgendered him. Also that when he asked where the CR room was staff felt unsure as to which CR to direct him

to and that made them feel uncomfortable.
NC did SF do anything to follow this up
SP no
NC pls turn to p405 of the bundle. That's an email from SF to you setting up a call on 10 Jan - remember that call?
SP yes

NC why remember?
SP "I was at my mother and father's house at the time. My father was dying and it was the day before he passed away." I don't remember much about the conversation.

NC pls turn to p408 of the bundle. That' an email from SF to you dated 20 Jan 2025 forwarding an email from Norman Provan (NP). When did you read that?
SP wasn't till August - discovered it in my junk box
NC which august
SP august 2025

NC "had the RCN contacted you to ask you for any info before 20 Jan and if so what?"
SP "no they never contacted me"

NC it's uncontentious that your first claim against NHS Fife was listed for ten days but in the end went part heard and had to be listed for further days in July and September. Pls go to 412 - letter from you to NP - why send that letter?

SP I had been made aware that my solicitor had said I might be able to sue the solicitor for further harassment and asked me to ask the RCN if they would help me in a secondary case. [SP is super quiet]

NC skipping over a great deal because most of what happened next is recorded in docs undisputed by the parties. You're currently being investigated by the NMC for fitness to practice - who is your rep?

SP not the RCN - it's MG
NC why not the RCN
SP they never contacted me about it, so...

[NC asks for an early mid morning break to take instruction]
J [to SP] we're going to take a break - pls don't discuss the evidence you've been given or are likely to give. I'm just going to let the clerk know...
J okay we'll take a break and come back in ten minutes.

That seems to cover it for now!

We know from previous tribunals that NC usually uses whatsapp to take instructions during cross, and the defence advocate said once that that was completely fine and normal.

Also wasnt there a recent case with the ex-cop Watson where he had to keep going outside to instruct his barrister not to pursue certain arguments that seemed likely to have gone to shit for him? 😀

I think I heard the lovely Miss Phoenix during the break.

Any other parties who have behaved egregiously should confess proactively to avoid getting Naomi'd in due course.