Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #62

From TT:

J - Will take a short break, 10 minutes sufficient?
NC yes
J - standard admonishment to SP on not discussing evidence.
Court rises.

End of morning session part one.

Part two, morning session, 23 September, Peggie vs RCN will continue here. There have been some problems with sound, we will do our best but can only report what we hear. Microphones have been repositioned. t.co/GX6nTDKp2g

Tribunal Tweets applied for access to the electronic copy of the bundle which was denied by the court; both parties and the tribunal must agree.

Do you think they'll ever manage to sort the sound out properly in these tribunals?

while on a break here's the Nick Wallis version:

Naomi Cunningham starts with the examination (e). The cross-examination (xe) by David Hay KC will follow but this I am told could run into the second day.
NC full name
SP Sandie Walker Peggie NC member of RCN SP 30 years
J please keep your voice up.
NC in relation to the RCN it's right you've mostly dealt with Stuart Fraser, Norman Provan and Gillian Tate, their senior legal officer. SP yes NC in around Oct 2023 NHS Fife allowed Dr Upton to use the ladies changing room - how did this happen
SP DU started as a junior doctor in the department and we were told he could use the changing room - there was a lot of tit tat "there was a few people who was uncomfortable with him using the area"

NC was there any disco about this before DU started in the dept
SP "there wasn't any"
NC you encountered DU x3 in the changing rooms in A&E and you complained after the first time and nothing was done - you say a lot of people were uncomf - how do you know SP general chit chat in the dept

NC why did those people not support you in the last tribunal SP I think it was fear NC why
SP they'd seen the way I was treated by my employer

NC on third encounter with DU on xmas eve 2023 you insisted he should not be there as he was male and he refused to leave and suggested youtake that up with managers. Fair summary?
SP yes

NC you were due to work next on 30 Dec, but before that you were put on special leave after DU complained about you? SP yes NC when did you first contact the RCN SP sent an email before 30 Dec and was told someone would get in touch

[goes to p319 in the main bundle which we can only see if we leave court and look up the right page and copy out its contents grouch grouch] NC that's an RCN document headed Case Summary - it says case received 24 Dec 2023 - why that date - how could it have got that date

SP no idea - NC so when do you think the RCN first became aware of this case SP before 30 Dec NC you were called by Stuart Fraser (SF) on 4 or 5 of Jan. What happened
SP pleasant call I told him what had happened, "he told me more or less that I was being disciplined because I had harassed Beth in the changing area" that the disc process takes 4 to 6 weeks and "I should more or less treat it as an extended holiday"

NC did you ask him any specific qs? SP "not really. I just wanted his advice" [go to p20 in the bundle] NC short note presumably made by SF about that conversation. Is that a fair outline of what was said? SP yes
NC turn over the page to p321 - that's the email the RCN say they sent to you attaching the letter from SF of the same date on p322. Go back to p321 and look at the To box. It's from Donna McCoom but to 3038606. Would you expect to receive an email sent that way? SP no

NC you had a meeting after your convo with SF SP I contacted my husband cousin who is a lawyer and he said it wasn't his area, but he'd give me the name of someone who "after speaking with SF, I got the feeling he wasn't taking it as seriously as I was". My mum told me she'd heard someone else who had trouble with NHS Fife and he went to get advice from Neale Hanvey who was their MP and that I should. NC why go to an MP SP I didn't think SF was taking it seriously. I think he thought I had been disc because [indistinct]

NC what was you rmeeting with NH like SP I took him my suspension letter and let him read it and he "appeared quite angry" - he put me in touch with sex matters and said he thought "that there should be some kind of legal input"

NC what happened next? SP I called Maya Forstater at Sex Matters (SM) and her first reaction was that I had a legal case against my employer NC turn to p334 of the bundle [I am recording these page nos so I can inspect them later] that's a file note of Margaret Gribbon's convo...

... with Norman Provan in which MG tells NP that the Union had an "industrial strategic role" for the RCN to play in this [MG is SP's solicitor] - "did the union do anything after that convo with MG to address the fact a man was being allowed to use the women's changing room?"

SP no NC did they do anything to see how your colleagues felt about that decision SP no NC in March 2024 SF attended a meeting with you and RCN. We introduced ourselves. I met Charlotte Myles from NHS Fife that suspension was being lifted and would I like to work in another

area of the hospital. I refused [sorry this is SP talking now] - I loved my job in A&E and I hadn't done anything wrong.
NC what did SF do
SP took notes. After the meeting he asked me if it would be possible for me to move to another job so I felt he was pushing me in that direction.
NC how did that make you feel?
SP "not supported" felt like "he was taking the doctor's side rather than mine" NC go to page x64 of the bundle. That's an email from MG to Adam Watson for the Board on 1 May 2024 and discloses the sexual assault you suffered at the hands of your GP when you were 17 to the Board. SF is copied in. Was there any follow up from him on seeing this email? SP no NC the board was conducting written statements for the Board [Fife Health Board aka NHS Fife]

NC pls turn to p370 of the bundle. That's an email 26 Au 2024 from MG. MG say SP should not be pressed by AG on disclosing ID of person who gave info in x pars - what was that info that MG was asking SF to investigate?

SP she was asking him to find out if there were any other female staff who felt uncomfortable with BU in the CR.
NC pls read the last sentence of the par in that letter. [intervention as people watching remotely cannot hear what's being said. SP is v softly spoken]

NC what was it in DU's work history that MG wanted the board to investigate
SP I'd heard in his previous work he'd made a complaint about an elderly patient who had misgendered him. Also that when he asked where the CR room was staff felt unsure as to which CR to direct him

to and that made them feel uncomfortable.
NC did SF do anything to follow this up SP no NC pls turn to p405 of the bundle. That's an email from SF to you setting up a call on 10 Jan - remember that call? SP yes

NC why remember? SP "I was at my mother and father's house at the time. My father was dying and it was the day before he passed away." I don't remember much about the conversation.

NC pls turn to p408 of the bundle. That' an email from SF to you dated 20 Jan 2025 forwarding an email from Norman Provan (NP). When did you read that? SP wasn't till August - discovered it in my junk box NC which august SP august 2025

NC "had the RCN contacted you to ask you for any info before 20 Jan and if so what?" SP "no they never contacted me"

NC it's uncontentious that your first claim against NHS Fife was listed for ten days but in the end went part heard and had to be listed for further days in July and September. Pls go to 412 - letter from you to NP - why send that letter?

SP I had been made aware that my solicitor had said I might be able to sue the solicitor for further harassment and asked me to ask the RCN if they would help me in a secondary case. [SP is super quiet]

·
NC skipping over a great deal because most of what happened next is recorded in docs undisputed by the parties. You're currently being investigated by the NMC for fitness to practice - who is your rep?

SP not the RCN - it's MG
NC why not the RCN
SP they never contacted me about it, so...

[NC asks for an early mid morning break to take instruction] J [to SP] we're going to take a break - pls don't discuss the evidence you've been given or are likely to give. I'm just going to let the clerk know... J okay we'll take a break and come back in ten minutes.

[I've just been off in search of the bundle. It is being kept under lock and key and I have to be supervised whilst I "inspect" it. I've been told I am only allowed to look at documents already referenced in open court which I think is wrong...
... as it goes against my (admittedly limited) understanding of Cape Intermediate Holdings Ltd v Dring [2019] UKSC 38 a Supreme Court ruling which I think basically says journalists can access the whole bundle)

Oh thanks @fanOfBen that puts meat on the bones.

a union rep should offer more than the support of a solicitor, clearly neglected to bother with Sandie.

When the bar seems so low, and unquestioned, for men who want to be in the midst of women getting undressed, and in turn getting their togs off in front of said women and all seems to be ‘your wish is our command, sir. But we’ll insist they all call you madam. How do you like them apples?’

So it seems to me that they ignored a history of SA, because they were more inclined to go along with what the lads wanted. Effectively pushing safeguarding boundaries aside to accommodate the wishes of other lads. Just the way I see it.

There seems to have been no ‘why do you want to be in the middle of women getting undressed from Fife?’ I.e. possible voyeurism. Or, why do you want to get undressed in front of women? Possible exposure.

But tumbleweed from these righteous dudes when given information about past sexual abuse against SP. And how a male getting undressed, and being given access within view of her getting undressed was deeply troubling. And, no answer to MG as to the views and feelings of other women also put into that situation without their consent. Colour me surprised they didn’t want to give women any right to voice their concerns. Gobshites (in my personal opinion). What are those words? Oh yes, enablers. Facilitators. A type of accomplice really, one might say.

Am I understanding correctly that the RCN opened a file re SP on xmas eve - the day of the incident - 6 days before she contacted them about it?

Which would mean someone else did complain about her to the Union. Which could explain (but not excuse) the RCN treating her as the 'aggressor'. And opens the question of who complained. Not Upton, who wouldn’t be an RCN member. The senior nurse he complained to on the night would seem to be the only other party who would have known about it that fast.

Or did the RCN just misname the file?

(mumsnetters- won't continue with this as TT is so good)

Nick Wallis on x continued

[court is back sitting] NC this is going to be a lot shorter thanks to DH's approach - you've been off work since July 2024. why? SP originally my father's death and then stress from work NC did you want to sort anything in particular out before you returned to work

SP yes I wanted guarantees there would be no men in the female changing rooms at work
NC what is the upshot
SP no help from RCN

NC in broad terms how would you describe your help from the union
SP "there doesn't seem to have been any push from the RCN to get FHB to do anything about the changing room situation"

This

From TT:

We resume.
NC the good news, will be quite a lot shorter than anticipated, given DH cooperative attitude.
You have been absent from work since 2024, can you explain why?
SP originally off because of my father's death, and then the stress of this matter

NC anything you wanted to sort before you want back to work
SP I wanted to be certain there would be no men in the CR,
NC and did that happen
SP there didn't seem to be any push from RCN to sort out the CRs, and that it would MG who would be doing the the work to sort out

the CRs.
NC no further qs.
DH Good morning, you'll be aware I rep RCN, I've got some qs for you, arising from what you told us already and some other points, I appreciate you've been involved in a tribunal in this building, so you appreciate the process

Some of the qs I may be putting to you is because the employees of RCN may have different things to say, and I need to put those to you. Is that all clear
SP yes
DH you encountered DU in CR in Fife, on 3 times
SP yes
DH and DU had been given permission by Fife

is it just me who thinks DH is talking to Sandie like she's a stupid child?

From TT:

SP yes
DH - the first in Nov 2023?
SP no, August 2023
DH - this doc runs on over a number of pages and it is a part of your claim form, the amended version, it extends to 25 paras and the last page in page 59,
[SP turning pages]
DH - you've seen this before

SP yes
DH sets out your case against RCN, at the start, from para 5, set out over a number of paras, narration of events, we know this was prepared by counsel, but I presume that she obtained this info from you, either directly or via MG
SP - yes

There are wires trailing everywhere. There is a lot of scope for sound problems just from the way the mic wires must be moved around each time the room is set up. It looks like the judge's mic is powered over at the alternative witness stand that is nearest to the camera!

From TT:

DH - para 7 please, [brief discussion with NC], I'll move on from that, I'll withdraw that question, timing is not important for my purposes. Matters come to a head in Dec 2023, encounter with DU that leads to suspension, interested in something you said to the media some time

after this. [bundle ref]. This is a BBC news article, have you got that
SP yes
DH date 12 dec 2025, photo of you, strapline, you speaking at conference in Dundee, shortly after the judgment in NHS Fife, gave a press conf, is that right
SP yes

From TT:

DH offering your comments on judgment and the journey you've been on
SP yes
DH - page 80.....fifth para, speaking for the first time in public, next para and one after, has quotations of some things you said at this media conference. Do you recollect saying things along those

lines. It says 'I'm not a campaigner never heard the term gender critical before my complaint' , do you now appreciate the term gender critical
DH so SF says your first discussion was early Jan, he does not recall you using 'gender critical', does that sound accurate
SP yes

It's nice not to have to listen to Maya's surname being mangled to sound like an insult!

From TT:

DH did you then come to understand the phrase gender critical from your convo with SF'
SP yes
DH did GC come up in your discussion with Neil Hanvey,
SP I don't think it came up
DH you spoke with NH in late January
SP yes

DH you got in touch or were contacted by MF of Sex Matters?
SP yes
DH and is that when you started understanding or using the phrase gc
SP yes
DH and when was that
SP quite soon after I spoke with NH, I was in touch with SM

are they trying to say SF didn't realise it was a gender critical belief matter because SP didn't explicitly use the words 'gender critical'?

From TT:

and MF
DH a short email, 1st comm sent on your behalf by MG, to the RCN, sent on 2nd Feb 2024, we see that the subject heading is Nurse v NHS Fife, it looks like MG was acting on your behalf from no later than 2 Feb 2024
SP can't recall exact date but that's possible

DH can you recollect when you first spoke with MG?
SP I think MF contacted MG shortly after we spoke
DH first time you heard GC was in convo with MF
SP yes
DH were you made aware of what that meant
SP I was made aware that because I didnt' believe men should go into female CR I

It must be as I can't see where he's going with this if not.

me neither, and is he trying to say SP was egged on by MG and MF?
Its not clear where he is going at all.

Isn't it the union's job to advise their members on this kind of thing?

lol i dont see how this will help the RCN, but explains what Micheal F. Mentioned last evening about GC beliefs vary but that a fundamental tenet is that sex sometimes matters.

From TT:

was a sex realist, the same as GC
DH another email, a chain begins at 331, passing between MG and indivs at RCN, primarily NP (Norman Provan) at the foot of the page, from MG -->NP, 5 Feb, she sets out detail of your situation. A couple of questions

DH you are mentioned by name and your circumstances, would you have spoken with MG about your situation
SP yes
DH so you would have spoken with her by 5 Feb 2024
SP yes
DH easiest to count up from bottom of page, six lines, says 'I have been instructed to liaise with employer...'