To not be ok with race-based segregation?

What's most amusing about your posts is that actually, quite a lot of people HAVE explained things. But you dismiss those posts or ignore them or accuse them of being aggressive. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

So there's a no win. You complain when you're told to actually do the work yourself. You complain and dispute things when people tell what is happening/their perceptions etc. You ignore a great deal.

The point is that you aren't interested in "evolving" your thinking and you haven't "listened" to a single other point of view on this thread.

I'm white. I also do not define myself by my whiteness. I'd be a complete moron if I didn't accept that my whiteness has impacted all sorts of things throughout my life. I'm also a mother, I do not define myself as a mother. But again, being a mother impacts a great deal of how I interact with the world and my experiences and I'd be an idiot if I didn't acknowledge that either.

You also have a very low tolerance for robust discussion if you think these posts have been aggressive. But perhaps you think that they are all from black women and so you're just applying the "aggressive black woman" trope without even realising it.

@LusaBatoosa "I personally do not feel the need for an all white group, no. Somebody else might, and they may have completely valid reasons. I am not fighting for an exclusive white group." 10:50am.

If you view being challenged on racism as aggression, then that's on you
Is it? So back to 'it's your problem not mine'. Isn't this attitude one of the main attitude with challenge with racism?

How is that different to telling a non-white person that their feelings are not justified and therefore it's on them to deal with it?

I'm opened to learn and accept my perception to be challenged. It's hard though to listen to strangers who appear to only be interested in proving those who see the world differently to them that they are wrong and nothing they think or feel are worth any consideration.

It's shutting them down just like too many people still shut down minorities because their feelings are not worthy of being heard.

@Vuurhoutjies

But perhaps you think that they are all from black women and so you're just applying the "aggressive black woman" trope without even realising it.

Thank you!

100%. Hence the derogatory frothing from the mouth nonsense

The issue with racists is they are so see through, so utterly dumb and sing from the same illogical hymn sheet.

At least be creative, be intelligent. Be good at what you do. It's really awful to be mediocre at racist. Such a low existence.

@Myfabby Please do not use the word "retarded". I'm sure you didn't mean to use it in a derogatory fashion, but it is akin to the N word for a different group.

You are really too much now. You could have made your point without having to highlight the rest. Stop it. You are really showing yourself, as you have with every post that you write.

apologies- I have luckily been able to edit that. I think you could have made your point without referencing the N word though

Don't know you, but I love you 😍

9.54
if people called for a meeting for "Caucasians", this would be viewed as vehemently racist. If white people did it, they would absolutely be vilified.

10.45
I stand by the statement that if white people had a "White Only" group, they would be vilified. I cannot think of another group where it would be deemed unacceptable.

Me: That’s because while people are the majority. You cannot ‘exclude’ the majority. Do you also look at women only groups and say ‘if men did this, they’d be vilified’? Groups for people with disabilities and say ‘if people without disabilities did this, they’d be vilified’?

You (when you eventually answered, after being asked multiple times): I don't know why a group of neurotypical, able-bodied individuals would want a group free of disabilities. I certainly wouldn't join it if it existed. Would they be vilified for existing? I don't know, because I don't know why it would exist in the first place.

Me: So, in that case, do you know why a ‘Whites Only’ group that excludes minorities would exist in the first place? As you are clearly comfortable making (and standing by) the assertion that they’d be vilified and you apparently only do that if you understand the reason for a group’s existence.

You: gives specious example (I honestly can’t be bothered to find it) and cannot justify it when challenged.

So, exactly as I described: No, you explicitly stated that you didn’t know why a group that excluded the disabled would exist (which is why you wouldn’t make a similar statement re vilification), thus implying that you understood why a Whites Only group would exist. When pressed on this, you attempted to give me a (wholly specious) example of one that might be needed.

We can all copy/paste.

You know what happened nicely here?

Someone pointed out something could be offensive. You then acknowledged it, apologised, edited it and moved on.

You didn't argue, call that poster hysterical and frothing at the mouth, deny there was an issue, talk over them, tell them they were wrong etc etc etc

You just learnt, corrected and apologised.

If only some other posters on this thread could learn this behaviour

Isn't this attitude one of the main attitude with challenge with racism?No, it really isn't. You're reading the same things over and over again and for some reason deciding that you know better. You're evidently not open to learn. There's no point me engaging with you any further. There's already plenty of white people denying racism, you don't need to join in.

I am just a run of the mill, black woman trying to navigate life, who unfortunately has seen the ugly face of racism too much in my life. Check out Black MN if you have not already😄

What's most amusing about your posts is that actually, quite a lot of people HAVE explained things. But you dismiss those posts or ignore them or accuse them of being aggressive. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad
I don't think any posts here are amusing. Saying so is belittling, how is that helping?

I also haven't accused all posts of being aggressive at all. I have highlighted the use of aggression (which really was more a case of belittling) that was directed at me soecifically . Not all have been, thankfully, but some responses have been (and then have also become so the other way). I don't think I've hinted in any of my posts that racism exist and is real. I haven't said that these meetings were wrong. I have supported people who meet with those with shared experiences so I do agree with quite a few posts and comments.

The opinion I have shared that differ is that I felt we should focus on the nature of these 'parties' to actually confirm that their purpose was to discuss matters that affect them specifically rather than purposely exclude certain people.
gave the exemple of the office party which has been ignored.

I do indeed dislike generalisations and assumptions made based on one belonging in a specific group. I don't like comments that start with 'black people do, don't, feel, want.....' nor the same points made about 'white people can't, won't, etc ...' Does this mean I'm not listening?

@jbeble not really, all you're really getting at is that what I said requires additional clarification.

The bad kind is more about negativity impacting and having power over those not included than those who are.

The "good" kind is supporting those negatively impacted by those not included, and go some way to correcting a power imbalance.

Proof of the real difference is this, in what way do the non-attendees suffer? It's a ridiculously obvious question for the bad kind, you'd fall over yourself for example. For the kind you're upset about, any answer almost certainly is rooted in another oppression, which isn't helped by banning the "good" kind

I put good in quotes because I don't think the "good" kind is a solution, but a reasonable tool to deal with the reality of where we are today.

I'm sure you'll go picking holes, but I'm not playing that game. It'll take a bloody essay to write a water tight answer and we're not writing laws here 🤣🤣🤣

Spot on. Well said.

Same sis. Same. Try Black woman living in a tiny predominantly white affluent village in Surrey. But we must accept everything and not complain because 1.it's a privilege to be in the UK; 2.gollywogs aren't offensive , 3 We foam and froth at the mouth 4. We can always go to Rwanda😂5. When a banana is thrown at my son for scoring a winning goal, it was just a angry rival and could have been a satsuma/piece of paper/insert any other random excuse.

@vivainsomnia You said people were aggressive. Now you're changing to belittling. But either way, that was you.

You absolutely have suggested that racism is NOT at play in all kinds of situations, including, for example, lack of representation of people of colour in business and at many many events and actiivities in the professional world.

The office party you provided was not ignored. It was specifically pointed out that some Christmas or other parties are regularly held for POC, LGBT etc. You ignored that as part of your "gotcha" that office parties are always for everyone.

The only posts that have been funny are yours. Perhaps that is belittling of me. But I'm afraid I'm struggling to take you seriously.

Isn't this attitude one of the main attitude with challenge with racism?No, it really isn't. You're reading the same things over and over again and for some reason deciding that you know better. You're evidently not open to learn. There's no point me engaging with you any further. There's already plenty of white people denying racism, you don't need to join in

I don't know better but ok. You're free to not want to engage further. You've now put me in a category and closed the box it would seem so I guess there's not much else I can say anyway.

No no no. Please tell me that's not true. Please?!

I know it is. I'm sorry. I also live in a village in Surrey. If it's any consolation, if I was there, I would have been horrified and outraged. Probably isn't a consolation. I know.

I hear you@Myfabby . The gaslighting that goes on is real. It is always everything under the sun, why such, and such happened. It could never be racism, oh no🙄.

Oh it is so true. I was a also a boarder here in the UK years ago, when things were way worse, so I have so many stories, but you know what, I have also met and made several fantastic life long friend as have my children. My son truly considers it home. Racists won't win.

I am sorry you and your son experienced that, @Myfabby. There is no excuse.

No, it's always just "coincidence". The exact same thing "could" happen (or "has happened") to a white person. The fact that it happens to black people x1000 more often... coincidence.

Also, if it wasn't specifically MEANT as a racial slur, it doesn't count. You know that right?! So, if someone calls you a monkey, but they weren't specifically thinking "you are a terrible, inferior, worthless black person" then of COURSE it's not racism. Never.

The fact that my local Waitrose when I lived in Wandsworth was staffed almost exclusively with people of colour and yet, management were all white... TOTALLY coincidental. No racism there at all - after all, the bulk of the staff are not white so of course we're not racist.

I say this a lot - if even my 12 year old DS can come home and tell me that there is a notable difference in how him and his friends are perceived when they're out and about when it's just a group of white boys vs when it's a group of white boys with some black/mixed race boys too.... well, amazing how grown adults are so oblivious.

I need to get off MN today. Between this thread and another one on useless men, I'm losing the will to live.

You absolutely have suggested that racism is NOT at play in all kinds of situations, including, for example, lack of representation of people of colour in business and at many many events and actiivities in the professional world
No, I really didn't say that at all. You have not interpreted my comment has it was meant.

So again, what I said is that due to a number of factors that can influence an outcome, we cannot assume that in all cases, the reason why representation is unbalanced in specific circumstances is inevitably due to racism.

The office party you provided was not ignored. It was specifically pointed out that some Christmas or other parties are regularly held for POC, LGBT etc. You ignored that as part of your "gotcha" that office parties are always for everyone
except that wasn't an answer to my specific scenario. I was talking about parties held for POC, ect...but about a team/office Christmas party which again is a very different situation. There was no 'gotcha' as you put it.

So I'll elaborate. Working Team of 10, 6 white people/4 non-white. Manager decide to arrange a Xmas get together. He invites the 6 and ignores the 4. Is this acceptable? I think we all agree that it isn't. It is illegal and a stackable offence.

Same team but 6 non-white people, 4 white. Same situation, only 6 invited. Is this ok? Again, it depends on the context, but if it is to celebrate as a team, then it is discrimination too.

What if all 10 are invited, but circumstances are that unfortunately, the 4 non-white can't make it at last minute. 1 has sick children and no childcare. 1 doesn't like get together, 1 is I'll themselves and the other's car broke down. So the group is down to only white people. Does this automatically mean that they are all racist?

I take regular breaks from MN@Vuurhoutjies . I have to protect my mental health at the end of the day, and stay off the threads on racism, if I am not feeling robust enough. Posters constantly denying black, and brown people's reality on here is draining. It is very easy to spot who those posters are though, like the ones on here.