To not be ok with race-based segregation?

I should stop engaging, but okay, last time:

No, I really didn't say that at all. You have not interpreted my comment has it was meant.

Write better then.

So again, what I said is that due to a number of factors that can influence an outcome, we cannot assume that in all cases, the reason why representation is unbalanced in specific circumstances is inevitably due to racism.

this is difficult to understand (see my "write better then" comment) but I think I get it. And my response is: No we can't assume that in ALL cases lack of representation is due to racism. But those of us who actually pay attention are fully aware that racism, and the longstanding factors that derive from racism, is hugely responsible and plays an outsized role in this lack of representation. From the way black and brown children are likely to be subtly pushed down different career/education paths, to unconscious bias in recruitment and promotion processes, to specific instances of "true" racism.

I was talking about parties held for POC, ect...but about a team/office Christmas party which again is a very different situation. There was no 'gotcha' as you put it.

You still make no sense. It was explained that some companies absolutely DO have parties/celebrations, including at Christmas, for POC or other groups. In your SPECIFIC example of a small team, that might not necessarily be the case but it wouldn't' surprise me if the sub team of POC chose to go out for a Christmas meal separately to the white members of the team. Hard to say because, as previously discussed, everywhere I have worked has been completely dominated by white people. In the case of OP's mayor group, I think it's perfectly reasonable because there is a specific and different need/celebration that is taking place. But I know you disagree.

What if all 10 are invited, but circumstances are that unfortunately, the 4 non-white can't make it at last minute. 1 has sick children and no childcare. 1 doesn't like get together, 1 is I'll themselves and the other's car broke down. So the group is down to only white people. Does this automatically mean that they are all racist?

Such a silly example and you know it. A more accurate example would be that there was a team of 20. Only 2 weren't white. One couldn't make it and the other one pulled out because she/he felt uncomfortable being the only POC in the room. Even if your example DID happen, of course that's not racist. But what's interesting is that it is far more common and likely that even in a team that is racially diverse, the chances of an event somehow landing up being all white is probably MORE likely. Another "coincidence".

Honestly @Vuurhoutjies . Don't waste your time with that poster.

I think this is one of the most important posts on this thread.

I've fucked up. I readily admit this. I've had to address whether I hold unconscious bias. As a child I really didn't 'see' colour: I didn't even notice my friends and neighbours were black until one of them was called a racist pejorative at school assembly one day, and I couldn't understand why such words were so hurtful to her. To my eternal shame I once used a phrase in my workplace which had horrible racist connotations of which I was unaware - it had just crept into common parlance - but if I'd just stopped to think about it for a moment I could and should have been aware. Ignorance isn't an excuse. There was an African American woman in the room. I was beyond horrified, and I made it my business to go and look up other such phrases and sear them into my brain so that they never, ever crept into my vocabulary again. I still can't think of that situation without cringeing and my face going hot.

Simply overt racism isn't just it: there are covert instances of it which I'm sure PoC encounter every single day, and which my racial privilege enables me not to see. There is systemic racism. We live in a country in which this exists, therefore we are going to have internalized some of the BS. But it's our own job to unpick this. PoC must be exhausted having to navigate it day in, day out. They are not responsible for others' racism, or for teaching them better behaviour: this is akin to victim blaming and putting all the responsibility for wrongs done to them back onto them. This isn't good enough.

We can't take back what we get wrong. We can learn from it and endeavour not to repeat it. IMO, claiming that we are 'tolerant' (how patronising; who are we to 'tolerate' others), and one of the least racist countries (what are the points of comparison? How can we really know this?) or denying racism exists in the first place is doing no one any favours. A problem can't be addressed if you won't admit the problem is there. And any wally can see that it IS there, and to suggest the contrary is a very hollow claim which is simply not true.

I completely agree with you OP but you won't get many others doing the same. The ones equating it with women's only events..really? It's just another divisive exercise, where white people need to play along with. No, I'm not playing your game, I would be saying as a white elected person. You are either an advocate of cohesion and multiculturalism or you are not. Clearly, this women isn't and should be removed from her post. It's exclusionary and therefore racist. The excuses justifying it, are pathetic.

Not in the slightest bit comparable.

😂😂

I rest my case.

You can't point out something that obvious. All the list of social justice excuses will come rolling out, as they have done already. Question: is there a reason why we are including only whites?
Answer: well, no, not a legal one.

So why should this be any different in this case. The bollocks about sharing experiences is exactly that, bollocks. The only way to fight racism is to be unified. If this group want to share their experiences, their elected positions, shouldn't be the platform.

I just moved to the Surrey/London borders from central London. It’s been…interesting. Delighted to learn that there are ladies like you two about.

Please tell us how women only events are different and not divisive.

Thank you for your honesty in your post @SerafinasGoose . Sadly there are not enough people out there like you.

Women only events are normally around safety. Are you being deliberately obtuse? If it's for equality reasons, it's normally to addressing narrowing the pay gap etc. How does this event, in question, foster race equality and in this particular arena? These people are already elected. The fact that it's got people talking, for the wrong reasons, questions its agenda.

🙄

The women in business and tech groups many of us are in aren’t about safety. Ladies only lunch groups. Social clubs. Work events. They’re about shared experiences. As this event was.

So, just to be clear, when female elected officials have female only events, you also object to those, consider them divisive and question their agenda?

@Vuurhoutjies, this thread wasn't started to talk about racism in general. It's not about children chances for a career, promotion etc... that's another much more general topic and I would respond to these differently.

This thread is about organising parties, ie. celebrating something and whether it's ok to be racially dividing or not.

So yes, my exemples are very pertinent and I'm sorry if you can't see the link. Maybe I do need to write better (I accept that) although some posters seem to have understood my posts as they were meant to be interpreted.

But what's interesting is that it is far more common and likely that even in a team that is racially diverse, the chances of an event somehow landing up being all white is probably MORE likely. Another "coincidence"
But surely that is statistically more likely so how can anything be extrapolated from it?

I can say that we've never had, in all the years that I've worked with my team (40% non white, so much over the local breakdown of our local population) an event, or get together that only included the white members of the team. We are a brilliant team and despite the massive diversity, in age, sex, race and culture, we get along and respect eachother incredibly well and that's why I love my job.

I certainly would object to them. As with this event, it is wanting it both ways. Fighting for equality, then when you get it, rejecting it, when it suits.

You can think of all the excuses under the sun to justify this Boston fiasco
None of it washes. You simply do not act divisively in politics, while speaking about social justice. Then again, Diane Abbott, spent her political career doing exactly that.

Really? You can't think of why white minority groups like Irish travellers or Ashkenazi Jews might want their own groups where they feel safe and where they might be able to discuss their own unique culture and concerns? Do you not know about their historical oppression?

///

Velveteen sorry if my post was unclear as what I was trying to say that as a white woman with no other minority experience (aside from being a woman I guess) I've no need to convene with others like me as, due to not belonging to another minority group - such as those you have mentioned- I have been bloody lucky not to have experienced oppression or othering.

This was in response to the cries of "there would be an outcry if white people did this just for white people " earlier. Apologies if my clumsy wording gave any other impression.

Basically any oppressed/persecuted groups should have absolute freedom to gather and share experiences with others who get that, every day of the week.

You could argue that segregationist laws were the free choice of those who voted for them, would that make them right?

//

We'll only if ever person potentially impacted also had a say. Which they didn't.

If women only events are okay in order to discuss topics such as narrowing the pay gap, and its been established that statistically America has a racial pay gap then really whats the problem? Perhaps they were using the opportunity to discuss narrowing the racial pay gap.

Jesus Christ.

Groups of people who are still experiencing oppression and micro aggressions every day of their lives and needing safe spaces to talk about experiences which their oppressor class will NEVER EVER HAVE TO EXPERIENCE is wanting it both ways?!!!

Caveat to my own post again here for those who may deliberately be obtuse ... I've absolutely experienced bad shit from men due to being a woman.

But that's not the specific of what this thread is about.

I certainly would object to them. As with this event, it is wanting it both ways. Fighting for equality, then when you get it, rejecting it, when it suits.

At least you’re consistent.

Then again, Diane Abbott, spent her political career doing exactly that.

It’s interesting that you bring up one of the very very few prominent Black female politicians to prove your point, as opposed to one of the dozens (possibly hundreds) of white male examples of every conceivable sort of two faced shenanigans. But, I’m sure that’s a coincidence.

But there isn’t equality. Far far from it.

in a lot of ways things may be heading in the right direction but there is still a long way to go. I can see that as someone who isn’t a person of colour, infact a lot of the posts in this thread highlight how far there still is to go before we get anything like equality.

😂😂

So holding a 'holiday party' , to the exclusion of another group is OK with you. Well the logic goes out the window then of these people sharing a common purpose, you know to serve the wide range of people who elected them. There is a time for sharing Oppressive experiences and a time for getting on with the job you've been elected to do. Yes, that includes celebrating in a uniformed fashion.
You can see who looks for division on this thread.who are the oppressors in this case? Are you going to tell the white elected they've done something wrong not to be invited? Look forward to how this would go down if every organisation followed suit. You're desperately trying to to defend the indefensible.