Does my bum look unprofessional in this?

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

I've been thinking recently that there seem to be a lot of ways that women can written off at work as unprofessional, based only on their physical appearance/clothes/grooming.

It got me thinking when my mum said recently (she is not usually this mad) that I should not have worn a top to work - working with young people - because it was unprofessional. In this case "unprofessional" turned out to code for "exposed approximately 1cm of cleavage".

It seems to me that going to work while female involves a minefield of issues in which judgements are made about you disproportionately based on your appearance. Just wondered if anyone had any thoughts on issues around work & appearance.

Some places where I've worked, a woman being pretty is enough to make people think she must be stupid. Why?

What is your work?

Check out his thread a few days ago www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/996516-What-do-you-make-of-this-advert it is about an advert for a letting agency.

I do think that there are appearance related things in your basic office environment that detract from a man's ability to be "seen" as professional.

TBH in my experience, the sexism that I have encountered has been entirely and simply due to my sex. Not anything else IYSWIM.

eg the woman being pretty = thick is a basic sexist thing, and not actually influenced by how she is dressed IYSWIM. A sexist person will think a pretty woman is thick no matter what she is wearing. I think.

What I was thinking was things like tousled hair on man = fine. Tousled hair on a woman - oops she looks unprofessional. There is a whole raft of appearance "requirements" in order to kind of pass the test of being fit for work, it seems.

Long touseled hair on a man looks like a homeless person though! I work with a number of men who have long hair who feel very judged at work for not having "professional" short hair. And men in shorts are usually looked down on too, even when it is boiling.

Most workplaces have a uniform, formal or informal. I've found sexism to be about my gender more than how I dress, although can think of some exceptions to that rule sadly.

My DP is a bit too laid back about his appearance - not to an extreme, but he would turn up in slightly creased clothes or things that were a bit too casual. He got pulled up in front of his boss about it, despite the fact that it's a casual office and the boss wears Converse and jeans.

I don't think it's fair to say that it's just women who have to watch their appearance at work.

I was having a conversation with a male friend the other day and he complained that women can get away with wearing much cooler clothes in summer - skirts, smart shorts, tops that aren't stiff shirts - whereas men have to stick to button up shirts and couldn't come in wearing shorts.

I also remember that when I had retail job there was a guy who had long hair and he had to keep it tied back at all times, whereas the women could get away with different hair styles. There was another guy who got told off for wearing eyebrow piercings and a small hoop in one ear.

I was at uni with a guy who was a very successful model for Ralph Lauren and he complained about people making judgements about his intelligence or assuming that he was going to be very arrogant and stuck up because he was good looking.

This is something I struggle with. I saw an article in the newspaper recently about a young female city worker (I think in the US) who'd taken her employer to court for firing her for looking too provocative (basically she was young and pretty and, even though she wore "professional" suits, her male colleagues couldn't keep their eyes off her arse). She lost

There's a woman in my office who dresses like a walking talking Barbie doll (think 6" heels, tiny dresses, breast implants, lots of hair extensions etc). She walked past me and a (feminist) colleague/friend the other day and my friend made a comment about this woman's tiny dress. I said "that wasn't a very sisterly thing to say". Her response was "well that wasn't a very sisterly dress!"

There's some interesting thoughts about this in the Beauty Myth I seem to remember. I am looking forward to re-reading it for the book club.

I started my career in a big london accountancy firm at the end of the seventies. Bearded men were tolerated in the ranks, but those who looked as if they might make assistant manager or manager were quietly taken to one side and told to lose the face fur, as it looked unprofessional.

With regard to women, it is a fact that men like looking at women in a sexual way. In order to maintain their professionalism, and not be admired purely for their tits and arses, women need to make sure that their clothes don't overemphasise these features.

Sadly, once men are privately saying "Phwoar, look at the arse on that" to each other, they're not going to be adding "Oh, but she's a brilliant accountant/lawyer etc."

Male gaze, women as objects. You have to defeminise yourself in order to be seen as anything other than a cunt on legs. Cover up anything that men might like to look at - buttocks, thighs, cleavage, face, hair....

I acknowledge that there is an insane obsession with the way women look/dress in our society, and that at times it is ridiculous, insulting and totally OTT. I also realise that men don't come under this sort of scrutiny.

However, I do find the exposure of flesh to be off-putting at work. I don't really understand why any woman would want wear a very low-cut top with her breasts hanging out, particularly while at work.

I think the real problem, though, isn't with the women who wear skimpy tops and the men who judge them for it, it's much more pervasive than that.

Look at female politicians. They are unable, in the eyes of the media and just about everyone, to get it right. Too manly, too scruffy, too mumsy, too sexy. I mean, FFS, name me one female politician (and I mean politician, not Michelle Obama! ) who has 'got it right' in the eyes of the masses? It is so bloody frustrating. Nobody gives a fuck that Ed Balls permanenetly looks like he has just come in from a boozy night or that Nick Clegg wears 'Asda manager' cheap suits.

Galling.

"Look at female politicians.They are unable, in the eyes of the media and just about everyone, to get it right."

And it's just as bad here on MumsNet too. There was a derogatory thread about the hairstyle of the woman Chief Constable in the Raoul Moat case. Personally I would be more interested in how she got to the position she's in, and whether she made any sacrifices along the way.

Margaret Thatcher got it right. Im not a fan, but do admire her. Professional = look smart. You dont have to look like a man, wear jewellry etc but nothing 'sexual'.

Apparently she still had a strong sexual effect on some men. I think its called POWER

Yeah that's it really ReasonableDoubt- there seems to be no right answer. Wear "normal" clothes and if you have e.g. large breasts where the shape will be seen - bam, you're "unprofessional".

Colditz - you are bang on there. It's like you have to "disguise" your female body in order to be considered worthwhile in the brain department. It seems the implication is woman = thick & sexually available. And if you want to be considered intelligent and not sexually available, you have to "dress up" to hide the fact that you're a woman at all.

Shouldn't it be possible to be seen to be female (and let's face it, most normal clothes available for women do show the body shape to an extent - not talking spandex minidresses here) and not have the fact of your gender indicate other things about you, like brain power?

But then if you wore what a man would wear - a loose fitting suit and shirt buttoned to the neck - and people would think you were "dowdy", "not taking 'pride' in your appearance", or "trying to be like a man".

it's not that different for men, really.
I work in a City office. There is a dress code.

• there is an official one (we have one, it's quite detailed: no jeans, no bare shoulders, no t-shirts etc etc)

• there is also an unofficial one: clothes that are allowed, but make you look unprofessional. EG for women anything leopard skin print. Eg for men anything woolen.

Every company has norms. Ad agencies are different from banks, but there are always norms. It's just life.

You make your choice.

Part of being professional and successsful at work is to conform. Your company looks for and promotes conformists.

So don't wear leopard skin (women) don't wear pullovers (men) and don't show cleavage (both).

OR be an individual and push the boundaries, but you won't get rewarded for that.

What would you think of a woman who turned up to work in a loose fitting suit (a suit probably much like your own) that concealed her body shape, with a shirt and tie on?

What do the women in your office wear btw?

I don't work for a company btw (just to be clear)

what do we wear?

Well, we used to have compulsory suits, then in 2001/2002 we went to smart casual (as did many city firms, in response to the dotcom boom)

over time most men returned voluntarily to suits - but without ties. So standard dress, even though we are allowed smart-casual - for men has become suit, work shirt (w cufflinks) black shoes. No ties. smarter in Sales, Scruffier in IT

women - more variety, naturally, but same level of smartness.

• skirts or trousers - yes, often suits
• in the winter simple smart black trousers are very popular, with formal shirt/top. Often a jacket (often taken off when sittng down)

In the summer more skirts/dresses of course, and softer tops. but no bare shoulders. seldom any cleavage.

younger women more adventurous - some in pinafore dresses that look a bit school uniform - older ones more conservative.

you particular question - "woman who turned up to work in a loose fitting suit (a suit probably much like your own) that concealed her body shape, with a shirt and tie on"

• I think that would be quite an eccentric look, but of course perfectly within the rules, no one would actually object to it.
• but a tailored, female suit with a shirt (and no tie) would be very standard.

What would you think of it? is that what you wear?

Interesting that the men went back to suits of their own accord - smart and easy and professional.

It's the balance isn't it - a woman in a loose suit would look "eccentric", more normal to be "fitted",i.e. showing off the body shape more. Why do you think that it is customary for women's bodies to be displayed more in formal work clothes, than men's are? I'm assuming it would be "eccentric" for e.g. a man to come to work in a fitted tight shirt.

Sorry meant to say that I don't wear a suit, but as a freelancer I work in a variety of environments (anywhere from the beach to very formal offices) and find it hard to negotiate.

Also because I am constantly coming in to other people's workplaces I worry about making a good impression, and I find the whole thing a minefield. Formal, but not too formal for fear of being thought dull, but not too exciting for fear of being thought ditzy, not too lose and concealing for fear of looking dowdy/old fashioned, but not too tight or low/short for fear of looking unprofessional. I would love to put on a shirt and trousers and roll in to work, but it's incredibly hard to negotiate all this stuff.

yes, it is hard for free-lancers, especially if you are unfamiliar with a firm, because until/unless you are pretty sure of yourself, the safest strategy is to fit in, going for the smart end of the 'norms'.

but when you are interviewing, or when you are just starting - you don't know what everyone else wears.

as a free lancer going for an interview I would very much recommend (if possible) going to the company a week before at 8.30, or lunchtime, or 6pm and just watch people going in and out. that gives you a sense of it.

going back to your question - well, who knows how these 'norms' start?

BUT I think there is a lot of flexibility. Where I work a suit is good thing (as I said) so if you are wearing a suit, either trousers or skirt, you are 3/4 of the way there, and though you are right that women's clothes are more fitted, there is a definite range.. certainly you can be at the loose side of the spectrum without anyone noticing/or paying attnetion. But you can certainly go too loose OR for that matter too tight.

but not a tie - not wear I work anyway.

but one thing: the MORE you dress just like everyone else the LESS attention people will pay to your clothes or to your body shape. IMO.

Stubbornhubby: your office sounds like mine. The dress code is basically "conservative". That applies equally to men and to women.

For example, a man with an earring or ponytail would probably be frowned on just as much (indeed more than) a woman showing lots of cleavage or in a short skirt. In fact I've known men to be "judged" for wearing square toed shoes rather than standard Oxfords...

I think the minefield exists just as much for men as for women.

I have a pair of square toed shoes!
who knew?

I envy 'city' men who have a wardrobe fall of dry-cleaned suits hanging up, and just grab one each morning. It is nothing like the heartache most women I know endure in trying to maintain the 'right image' at work.

yeah, and then we go and spoil it with square-toed shoes