Does my bum look unprofessional in this?

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

I've been thinking recently that there seem to be a lot of ways that women can written off at work as unprofessional, based only on their physical appearance/clothes/grooming.

It got me thinking when my mum said recently (she is not usually this mad) that I should not have worn a top to work - working with young people - because it was unprofessional. In this case "unprofessional" turned out to code for "exposed approximately 1cm of cleavage".

It seems to me that going to work while female involves a minefield of issues in which judgements are made about you disproportionately based on your appearance. Just wondered if anyone had any thoughts on issues around work & appearance.

Some places where I've worked, a woman being pretty is enough to make people think she must be stupid. Why?

aw stubbornhubby didn't mean to offend you!

there are a few highly conservative men in my office who will slightly judge anyone whose shoes/shirts/suits etc aren't from precisely the right shop in Jermyn Street. those are the ones who might judge square toed shoes.

they are of course being ridiculous.

But women could have a wardrobe of dry cleaned suits if they wanted...

agree amothersplace (though I have to say, it's bloody hard to find a suit that fits properly - and most tailors don't do women's suits )

In fact I am very glad I'm a woman and have more outfit options than men. For example I can wear knitted tops which I much prefer to shirts (and don't need ironing).

ElephantsAndMiasmas

so in the lift on the way out this evening stepped a woman - early 30s I'd say - in a suit:

• loose fitting trousers, quite like a man's suit
• but a feminine tailored jacket, not tight, still fairly roomy, but definitely a woman's jacket, not a man's
• blue shirt with a collar (couldn't tell how fitted, as jacket on)

she looked great for the office. very professional, conformist, smart, feminine but not girly. I wouldn't have noticed her clothes particularly but for this thread, but...

sounds like a great outfit, maybe we just need nice trouser suits for women available everywhere. At the moment I live in a town with only the usual crap shops (e.g. dorothy perkins) and it's pink nylon shirts or nothing!

Me too, ReasonableDoubt!

Those men sound like a bit of a nightmare, minipie, how do you cope with them?

stubbornhubby wrote "feminine but not girly".

I think that is the best recipe for professional dressing success. I'm trying to put that into practice. I seem to know it when I see it on other women, as in your example of the woman you saw in the lift. My difficulty comes in applying that to myself. I suppose I must just not be put off by my failures and keep trying to get it right. Oh, maybe one day...

I mostly wear top covered by jacket and knee length skirt. Sometimes trousers.

Do you think skirts require/force the wearing of high heels, by definition almost?

yes, looking around my office most women seem to have heels, but not usually very high - you don't want to totter after all.

hmm.. I see quite a few of younger women are in flat shoes. I conclude these must be fashionable (?)

this morning a woman who has just transferred from overseas came and introduced herself to me.

in her 20s, smart black trousers, v smart looking jacket over a simple top, well groomed..

..but with two inches of midriff showing between her trousers and her top

not acceptable.

I thought 'perhasp I should say something', but then discarded the idea as it would have made me feel like her Dad, or something.

I then had to concentrate very hard on NOT staring at her tummy

PMSL at MN giving poor stubbornhubby a reputation for being the starer in his office .

Oh the heels thing does annoy me. I wear flats a lot of the time but am expected (by unwritten rule) to wear heels for meetings. Not comfortable, and expensive as well.

On the other hand, I don't have to wear a tie and can get away with a smartish t shirt type top rather than a shirt. So swings and roundabouts I suppose.

stubbornhubby that happens to me a lot (the midriff thing not the staring). It's not deliberate you know, it's because tops shrink in the wash and ride up.

i hate it when that happens.

I was about to say "I bet you do " then realised I'd probably get done for sexual harassment.

Unwritten rules my arse. Men are not expected to injure their feet to make their legs look longer and I absolutely refuse to bow to expectation on that. I am not a fucking ornament, Flat Shoes Until I Die.

where I work flat shoes are completly acceptable IMO

but yes many women wear heels.

Do you think it has got worse in recent years? I haven't had a 'proper' job for years, but when I did (up til 98) a trouser suit and lace up brogue style (? leather, flat, smart) shoes was definitely totally acceptable/normal women's office wear. As I recall the suits weren't any more 'fitted' than the equivalent male variety. (Or perhaps economists are so desperately unfashionable that some attempt at smartness is considered them most anyone can ask of them?)

The only 'dress code' in our office beyond that was that the better you were at your job, the more informally you could dress when not seeing clients.

I have to have a slight heel in work. God forbid that anyone would realise how short I actually am!

i think workplaces differ takver. I work in the city and I expect we are pretty conservative all in all.

i think what is common in ALL workplaces is that to succeed you should

• work out what the norms are, and
• conform to the smarter end of those norms

I think much about this issue is summed up nicely by this quote -

"When a man gets up to speak, people listen then look.
When a woman gets up, people look, then, if they like what they see, they listen"

• Pauline Frederick

Blimey I'm glad I don't have to think abut what footwear or clothes I wear for work.
This week I've gone to work in a pair of high gladiator sandals. denim shorts and a firetrap t shirt, also worn a Fat Face dress and flip flops, jeans and converse, a Betty Jackson skirt and DKNY top as well as Berghaus trousers and a North Face T shirt and looked perfectly normal everytime!!

shirt= pulling open at the chest. Or hanging around looking like you are about whip your easel out.

I think the dress code thing can work both ways. I agree that women can struggle to be seen as professional however dress codes for women can be more relaxed than those for men which I don't think helps the cause.

Our office is quite casual in the grand scheme of things, no-one wears a suit and I am wearing a fairly typical ensemble of cotton tunic, linen trousers and sandals today. Men tend to wear trousers and open necked shirts, no tie.

A colleague is wearing a plain white cotton t-shirt, skirt and flip flops. All nicely presented and she looks fine, the tshirt is clean, ironed, no cleavage and her flip flops are leather and look expensive. However if a man turned up in a tshirt and flip flops I suspect he would be roundly 'd by The Powers That Be. (Possibly even more so if he teamed his tshirt and flipflops with a skirt)

Loving Stubbornhubbys fashion dispatches from the frontline of the city!

My Dh has gone one further in the "effortless city dressing"stakes. He has had 10 identical shirts made to go with his 4 identical suits and 2 pairs of identical shoes, so he basically wears the same thing every single day, which he loves as it means getting dressed involves absolutely no effort at all.

In his office he stores 2 identical navy v neck jumpers in case the air con is a bit aggresive, and a selection of fairly similar looking ties.

Cannot imagine a women ever doing that.

Why not?

Just never a woman come even close to it. There may be some, and personally I am also a fan of a simple work wardrobe, but I cant imagine a woman taking it to that extreme.

(i.e. not just 5 similar black suits, but 5 absolutely identical suits).

I did used to wear pretty much top to toe black when I worked in the City- so I could get dressed in 2 mins and at least know everything would match!