Does my bum look unprofessional in this?

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

I've been thinking recently that there seem to be a lot of ways that women can written off at work as unprofessional, based only on their physical appearance/clothes/grooming.

It got me thinking when my mum said recently (she is not usually this mad) that I should not have worn a top to work - working with young people - because it was unprofessional. In this case "unprofessional" turned out to code for "exposed approximately 1cm of cleavage".

It seems to me that going to work while female involves a minefield of issues in which judgements are made about you disproportionately based on your appearance. Just wondered if anyone had any thoughts on issues around work & appearance.

Some places where I've worked, a woman being pretty is enough to make people think she must be stupid. Why?

I can't for the life of me find a nice looking pair of flat shoes that are comfortable and acceptable for work (i.e. not trainers). I blame the patriarchy.

MsR- cant you just wear ballet flats?

I have some but they have very thin soles so they wear out fast and my feet get cold, wet and I can't walk across gravel without wincing.

Try Jones or M&S ones with proper rubber or thick leather soles.

(or Pretty Ballerina/ French Sole if you're minted)

i work in a 'creative' and 'academic' environment so i can pretty much wear anything - i would always throw on a trouser suit for meeting trustees or presentations and i would wear a nice knee length dress or smarter trousers for press events and marketing 'do's but i can wear jeans on a normal day.

it's very equal between men and women in that atmosphere, although to be honest men rarely wear jeans but can wear cords and chinos and casual shirts.

Regarding womens suits being fitted and mens being baggy - isn't that only if they don't fit so well? I'm sure a well-fitting mens suit jacket should, when done up, emphasise the shoulders and make the waist look smaller.

A man's suit on a woman would be baggy, but only because the woman would be the wrong shape to fill it.

My office is v casual (not public-facing at all) - I work with a lot of tech guys and they all wear jeans with shirts or t-shirts. There is a story that one day one of them turned up half wearing pyjamas.

I used to work somewhere where if a woman turned up in anything other than a proper shirt under their suit they would be asked to change.

And 15 years ago I couldn't have worn trousers in Court.

I've lost count of the number of times it has been assumed that I am the admin assistant/secretary/girl who is going to take the notes, presumably because I am young blond and attractive (or was back in the days when I worked).

I have been forced to wear (tight) pencil skirts to work too, NDR, they are rubbish, especially when your job involves escorting people around buildings with lots of steep staircases.

i got around this (having to wear skirts) by insisting everyone wore an identical uniform (chinos and golf shirts)

it made the women in my teams life immesurably easier as we were based on site. the men were mostly just excited about free golf shirts.

Bump because I think this is really interesting and I want to hear from people with experience of working in a greater variety of places.

Trillian - like idea of tech guy half in pyjamas, question is which half?!

agree this is a really interesting thread. my old company was a small consultancy with a young staff. we had a dress code which was quite formal because of meeting stuffy clients. The reality was that ties were not worn, women tended to wear tops and skirts/ trousers rather than full suits etc. But if people looked scruffy then it was commented on.

A new and utterly talented graduate joined us and just refused to wear a suit. She was rather bohemian in look but stunningly intelligent and switched on (and quite pretty, this may have helped I imagine) and so although comments were made she didn't cave in and it had no repercussions for her career with us. Clients loved her and clearly didn't notice her clothes or felt she was a breath of fresh air. Later on she got headhunted to join a more hip and youthful consultancy in a move upwards. I can't imagine things would have worked out the same way in a more traditional or City company - one difference probably being that as we were small we didn't have an HR dept and no-one could really be bothered to enforce the "rules". larger companies do get a bit overly-bureaucratic and petty about these things ime.

Re heels, I would wear them with skirts because otherwise I felt short and dowdy. Heels gave me more confidence. All part of our cultural indoctrination of looks/ fashion / men-pleasing perhaps?

He turned up once with his pyjamas on under his trousers (before I joined, but there are reliable witnesses). I have no idea how he didn't notice.