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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie: Employment Tribunal, associated legal claims, and related matters - thread #63

939 replies

nauticant · 24/09/2026 13:07

TLDR version: Sandie Peggie vs Royal College of Nursing is currently being heard. The hearing started on Wednesday 23 September 2026 and is scheduled to end on Thursday 1 October 2026.

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims were of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claimed to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and after a prolonged process judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025. That judgment is being appealed and an appeal hearing is expected to take place in 2027.

Additional legal claims have been raised. Sandie Peggie is taking action against the Royal College of Nursing, against three senior managers who were witnesses in the employment tribunal - Dr Kate Searle, Dr Maggie Currer and Esther Davidson, against Carol Potter, the chief executive of NHS Fife, for victimisation, against NHS Fife for discrimination, and against its director of people and culture David Miller for harassment. In addition, Sandie Peggie is being investigated by the Nursing and Midwifery Council over fitness to practice.

The past proceedings were live tweeted by www.x.com/tribunaltweets. Tribunal Tweets are likely to be providing coverage in current and future proceedings. There's additional information on Tribunal Tweets' substack: tribunaltweets.substack.com/.

Links to previous threads #1 to #60 can be found in this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 60: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5461133-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-60 16 December 2025 to 8 January 2026

Thread 61: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5472628-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-61 8 January 2026 to 3 August 2026

Thread 62: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5562302-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-62 3 August 2026 to 24 September 2026

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SomewhatGlad · 25/09/2026 14:54

Justabaker · 25/09/2026 14:50

Norman deserves every single bamboo shoot NC is shoving under his fingernails. And more besides.

All that it requires for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

I'm pretty sure Normal self-identifies as a good man.

Deliberate or a typo, Justabaker? :-)

Good either way.

(I have been a statistician, Normal is normal to me.)

Justabaker · 25/09/2026 14:54

ickky · 25/09/2026 14:49

She also said fetishists

A thought on that one.....

Live tweeting at it's best, one is completely in the flow, the words come in the ears and out the fingers and the brain does very little filtering on the way. But there are words that get stuck in the filter - fetishist might be an example. And one could stop to thing - was that really said - or decide the rest of the words were more than enough to make the point.

Given the kicking TT has had in that very courtroom, sometimes, it may be better omit a spectacular word and be certain than to get the entire flaming sword.

edited

Boiledbeetle · 25/09/2026 14:57

MarieDeGournay · 25/09/2026 14:51

Hmmmm in that case, no mercy - 'Go on Nay, give 'im 'ell!'

He's definitely not happy that his carefully prepared management approved waffle isn't cutting it.

CriticalCondition · 25/09/2026 14:57

chilling19 · 25/09/2026 14:50

I must say I preferred the fully remote hearings carried out during COVID - we could actually see who was questioning and who was being questioned. <Fond memories of Ben C>

At least in this one we have a full front view of the witness even if he is at the far end of the room. And a good side view of the lawyers and the judge. And the screen is full size, not taken up with dozens of thumbnails of all the observers' blank screens.

Justabaker · 25/09/2026 14:57

SomewhatGlad · 25/09/2026 14:54

Deliberate or a typo, Justabaker? :-)

Good either way.

(I have been a statistician, Normal is normal to me.)

AHHHHHH

Typo.

Boiledbeetle · 25/09/2026 14:59

About to restart

SomewhatGlad · 25/09/2026 15:01

TT
We resume

Boiledbeetle · 25/09/2026 15:02

I think he's relieved NC hasn't gone straight back into eunuch questions.

I suspect his relief will be short lived.

SomewhatGlad · 25/09/2026 15:03

TT
NC - Your PA LP asked MG for some detail of case to have conv with you about. But we see an outline from MG. Turn to p334, see MG attendance note, think you accept that this is a fair outline of your conv on 12 Feb.

NP - yes (says something about permission I missed

RoseInAPot · 25/09/2026 15:03

Of interest from Nick who has been doing some reading during the break...

[the Carr report was written in 2022 and it is strong. This from the Exec Summary: "The RCN has been described as being “in a state of crisis as it goes blindly from one catastrophe to another without any respite in sight”. On the basis...

... of what I have seen, it is difficult to argue with that assessment."]

["It is an organisation which at its top, is riddled with division, dysfunction and distrust. Whilst the distrust is most prominent relation to the RCN’s Council and its Executive, it extends...

["... to relationships within Council and within the membership as well as between its professional and trade union arms."]

["There is a culture of suspicion within Council in which it does not believe that the Executive is acting in the best interests of the members..."]

Blimey.

["The culture of suspicion is further driven by fear of the next Emergency General Meeting (EGM). Both staff and Council members alike operate in an atmosphere in which they expect that their decisions will lead to a revolt from active groups within the membership who, due to the threshold requirement of 1,000 votes, are able to trigger an EGM as has been done twice in the last four years. This in turn causes organisational paralysis."]

["The make-up of Council does not reflect the membership of the College – despite recent improvements in the gender balance, it is still nearly 60% male whereas the membership is almost 90% female. As far as ethnicity is concerned, it is no better and the current Council is not reflective of the fact that around 45% of RCN members are from the BAME community. Many of those who serve on Council are seen as being “the same old faces” who have operated in the upper echelons of the College for many years. This, together with the lack of women or ethnic minority members, permits of a culture in which the College is seen to be run by middle-aged, white men. The substantial number of resignations from Council in recent years has only served to reinforce this perception. If RCN members do not feel that the College looks like they do – whether it be by reference to gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation or disability – they will at best not engage with and be active in it and at worst, will take their membership elsewhere."]

[Wow - "There is a real issue that needs to be addressed in relation to the culture of Congress. The evidence that I have seen suggests that there is a level of expectation amongst a significant number of (male) attendees that opportunities for sexual activity will present themselves at Congress. As a consequence, the boundaries between consensual and potentially exploitative sexual activity are at risk of becoming blurred if they have not already done so. That Congress is seen as a place at which there is, for at least some attendees, an expectation of, or an opportunity for, sex to take place, means that there is also the opportunity for alcohol and power-related exploitation of the vulnerable."]

[okay we're back]

....

Hedgehogforshort · 25/09/2026 15:04

Norman laters….

Pop Tv Wedding Planning GIF by Schitt's Creek
ickky · 25/09/2026 15:04

Justabaker · 25/09/2026 14:54

A thought on that one.....

Live tweeting at it's best, one is completely in the flow, the words come in the ears and out the fingers and the brain does very little filtering on the way. But there are words that get stuck in the filter - fetishist might be an example. And one could stop to thing - was that really said - or decide the rest of the words were more than enough to make the point.

Given the kicking TT has had in that very courtroom, sometimes, it may be better omit a spectacular word and be certain than to get the entire flaming sword.

edited

Edited

No shade at all to TT, you do gods work.

I think some words must inevitability get missed and it was a good word to include. 😀

Boiledbeetle · 25/09/2026 15:05

Hedgehogforshort · 25/09/2026 15:04

Norman laters….

It's gotta rank in his top 10 at least!

ETA Or should that be worst 10.

AWomanOfWealthAndTaste · 25/09/2026 15:06

RoseInAPot · 25/09/2026 15:03

Of interest from Nick who has been doing some reading during the break...

[the Carr report was written in 2022 and it is strong. This from the Exec Summary: "The RCN has been described as being “in a state of crisis as it goes blindly from one catastrophe to another without any respite in sight”. On the basis...

... of what I have seen, it is difficult to argue with that assessment."]

["It is an organisation which at its top, is riddled with division, dysfunction and distrust. Whilst the distrust is most prominent relation to the RCN’s Council and its Executive, it extends...

["... to relationships within Council and within the membership as well as between its professional and trade union arms."]

["There is a culture of suspicion within Council in which it does not believe that the Executive is acting in the best interests of the members..."]

Blimey.

["The culture of suspicion is further driven by fear of the next Emergency General Meeting (EGM). Both staff and Council members alike operate in an atmosphere in which they expect that their decisions will lead to a revolt from active groups within the membership who, due to the threshold requirement of 1,000 votes, are able to trigger an EGM as has been done twice in the last four years. This in turn causes organisational paralysis."]

["The make-up of Council does not reflect the membership of the College – despite recent improvements in the gender balance, it is still nearly 60% male whereas the membership is almost 90% female. As far as ethnicity is concerned, it is no better and the current Council is not reflective of the fact that around 45% of RCN members are from the BAME community. Many of those who serve on Council are seen as being “the same old faces” who have operated in the upper echelons of the College for many years. This, together with the lack of women or ethnic minority members, permits of a culture in which the College is seen to be run by middle-aged, white men. The substantial number of resignations from Council in recent years has only served to reinforce this perception. If RCN members do not feel that the College looks like they do – whether it be by reference to gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation or disability – they will at best not engage with and be active in it and at worst, will take their membership elsewhere."]

[Wow - "There is a real issue that needs to be addressed in relation to the culture of Congress. The evidence that I have seen suggests that there is a level of expectation amongst a significant number of (male) attendees that opportunities for sexual activity will present themselves at Congress. As a consequence, the boundaries between consensual and potentially exploitative sexual activity are at risk of becoming blurred if they have not already done so. That Congress is seen as a place at which there is, for at least some attendees, an expectation of, or an opportunity for, sex to take place, means that there is also the opportunity for alcohol and power-related exploitation of the vulnerable."]

[okay we're back]

....

Wow

Boiledbeetle · 25/09/2026 15:10

If I was him I'd be feeling a little queasy by now.

SomewhatGlad · 25/09/2026 15:10

TT

NC - You told MG union couldn't provide assistance. But the union would rep Ms Peggie in the workplace
NP- yes
NC - MG said that there was a strat role for union. Do you agree that the union needed to stand up for women's rights in general in terms of dignity not just Sandie
NP - yes
NC - she said needed a collective approach to the board letting me use women's spaces, collective is because unions are stronger together, it's frightening to stand up on your own. Right at heart of ethos of unions
NP - yes
NC - letter to SF from MG 13 Feb p336, she was right to say it threw up policy implications for all female employees. That the trans position taken without impact assessment or equality assessment. Isn't that behaviour that should infuriate a union?
NP - yes.

J - struggling to keep up at the moment.
NC - So what happened was that this NHS board without adopting a policy had adopted practice of trans ID men using female spaces NP not entirely....Dr Upton's consultant agreed could use the space...not NHS Fife [as a whole]

NC - quite important to find out about that? But you didn't?
NP - disagree. Stuart found out when allegations put to Ms Peggie. In terms of RCN we raised through governance group. Where all policies agreed across Scotland

NC - I want to suggest the reason nothing collective done, didn't kick up a fuss, that no women could trust sign on door, because taking that position opposes TWAW
NP - don't agree with that

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 25/09/2026 15:10

chilling19 · 25/09/2026 14:47

”misogynist creed” has entered the chat!

It's a very niche, stealth based role playing game

Datun · 25/09/2026 15:11

RoseInAPot · 25/09/2026 15:03

Of interest from Nick who has been doing some reading during the break...

[the Carr report was written in 2022 and it is strong. This from the Exec Summary: "The RCN has been described as being “in a state of crisis as it goes blindly from one catastrophe to another without any respite in sight”. On the basis...

... of what I have seen, it is difficult to argue with that assessment."]

["It is an organisation which at its top, is riddled with division, dysfunction and distrust. Whilst the distrust is most prominent relation to the RCN’s Council and its Executive, it extends...

["... to relationships within Council and within the membership as well as between its professional and trade union arms."]

["There is a culture of suspicion within Council in which it does not believe that the Executive is acting in the best interests of the members..."]

Blimey.

["The culture of suspicion is further driven by fear of the next Emergency General Meeting (EGM). Both staff and Council members alike operate in an atmosphere in which they expect that their decisions will lead to a revolt from active groups within the membership who, due to the threshold requirement of 1,000 votes, are able to trigger an EGM as has been done twice in the last four years. This in turn causes organisational paralysis."]

["The make-up of Council does not reflect the membership of the College – despite recent improvements in the gender balance, it is still nearly 60% male whereas the membership is almost 90% female. As far as ethnicity is concerned, it is no better and the current Council is not reflective of the fact that around 45% of RCN members are from the BAME community. Many of those who serve on Council are seen as being “the same old faces” who have operated in the upper echelons of the College for many years. This, together with the lack of women or ethnic minority members, permits of a culture in which the College is seen to be run by middle-aged, white men. The substantial number of resignations from Council in recent years has only served to reinforce this perception. If RCN members do not feel that the College looks like they do – whether it be by reference to gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation or disability – they will at best not engage with and be active in it and at worst, will take their membership elsewhere."]

[Wow - "There is a real issue that needs to be addressed in relation to the culture of Congress. The evidence that I have seen suggests that there is a level of expectation amongst a significant number of (male) attendees that opportunities for sexual activity will present themselves at Congress. As a consequence, the boundaries between consensual and potentially exploitative sexual activity are at risk of becoming blurred if they have not already done so. That Congress is seen as a place at which there is, for at least some attendees, an expectation of, or an opportunity for, sex to take place, means that there is also the opportunity for alcohol and power-related exploitation of the vulnerable."]

[okay we're back]

....

Wtf??

weegielass01 · 25/09/2026 15:11

the judge has long hair and womanly clothing so that is enough to make her a woman.....

Boiledbeetle · 25/09/2026 15:13

Moving on to excuse excuse excuse. Makes a change, not much mind, from waffle waffle waffle.

murasaki · 25/09/2026 15:13

weegielass01 · 25/09/2026 15:11

the judge has long hair and womanly clothing so that is enough to make her a woman.....

But has she got a v necked top. According to Australia, that's the clincher.

CriticalCondition · 25/09/2026 15:13

murasaki · 25/09/2026 15:13

But has she got a v necked top. According to Australia, that's the clincher.

And trousers. I'm so confused.

SomewhatGlad · 25/09/2026 15:14

TT
NC - Second claim page 400 please. Look at MG email Dec 2024. She drew to SF attention grounds for second claim and wanted to apply to RCN for the forms. SF referred that on to you and suggested a call.

(SomewhatGlad: still NC)
Your decision not to support that second claim. You start by saying number of issues problematic issues. Aren't you jumping the gun here?
NP we had been asked for forms, we don't have forms, that's not the mechanism.
(Missed poor sound)

Boiledbeetle · 25/09/2026 15:14

CriticalCondition · 25/09/2026 15:13

And trousers. I'm so confused.

Understandable.

If only there was some other way to tell!

SomewhatGlad · 25/09/2026 15:15

NC - even if you didn't have a form, you should have waited to see what she wanted to say before you said no?

NP - the request came in from her lawyer which was problematic Stuart forwarded it to me, I applied the rules of the org as to whether we offered support. The request did not meet the rules.

NC - you had discretion
NP - poor sounds
NC - January email you must have been aware this was an important decision NP- yes
NC - you drafted carefully
NP - I wrote as I would normally, routine