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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some clarity in how the trans movement became so embedded, so preeminent

1000 replies

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 22/09/2026 13:17

Despite being called a conspiracist here by a TRA, actually I work very hard to continually interrogate my thought processes, and not fall into easy generalisations etc.
So, I was reading Róisín Michaux and her fascinating conversation with someone high up in HIV funding, and the push in the last 20 years is to get everyone in the tent on retrovirals, meaning reaching out to not just gays and addicts, but sex workers (incl trans) and critically, the "third genders" who have migrated to the West in large numbers to end up as sex workers. And the decision was made to go for maximum anti stigmatization, which means zero messaging on personal behaviour, and critically deciding to accept these men as women. Don't blame them, get more onside.
Guess who has to move aside, and accept the messaging on health grounds that biological men can be women? Made even worse by the increase in HIV in European women who are the partners of men who use the services of these "third genders".
Then yesterday I read the amazing post from Hellofabore about how for 30 years plus, the sports authorities including IOC and FIFA decided to make total inclusion the policy, phasing out gender testing, primarily to allow the male DSDs from Africa mainly to be included, as they were IDd as female at birth, and the cruelty to deny they're still female is wrong.
Again, the overwhelming need is to not stigmatize these individuals. Of course a huge group (we know who) are stigmatized for objecting to losing sports opportunities.
And then back to Róisín Michaux again, her illuminating the revolution in psychiatric medicine, where men back in the day were diagnosed with transvestic disorder, a pure paraphylia, again to stop judging and be more inclusive, underwent massive de-stigmatisation and de-pathologisation, from paraphylia, to dysphoria, now to common all garden "sexual health category".
Three enormous areas where the drive to include men, to destigmatise their plight, to bring them in from the cold, couldn't happen in a vacuum. Society organised along sex-based lines couldn't be simply recategorised, no, a large population group (51% XX) was expected to move over, make their definition porous, extend the collective hand of kindness and inclusion, to this hardcore of men who were deemed most at risk, and needing most help.
At the same time, this blurring of definitions and imposed inclusivity spread from sport and medicine to law and education, the most motivated men worked hard to get the Gender Recognition Act on the statute book, and via Stonewall culture, "social training" and the "trans child" escalated as concepts and then real world consequences as noone in polite society other than a very brave few said anything.
So now we have developing nations male DSDs and "third genders", socially incorporated transvestites/transsexuals, and queer culture first world transgenders in the mix, a political culture in the West frozen into aquiescence and policy drift, and the only light of realism and sanity, an army of women fighting back, with amazing results re SC ruling, banishing self ID into the long grass, and medical and sports bodies tacking back to sanity.
But reading the almost scary analogousness of how health brought in trans and third genders at the expense of women, sport brought in male DSDs at the expense of women, psychiatry brought in transvestites from the cold at the expense of women, you can then see how the most motivated men got the Gender Recognition Act on the statute book to turbo charge the social trans/trans child revolution.
For me, I can now see the past as it travels into the future.

OP posts:
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GreyskySexRealistsky · 29/09/2026 10:46

FlirtsWithRhinos · 29/09/2026 09:53

Yep. To a certain mindset, the category of "just the female half of humanity" is just boring. Pointless. Too obvious.

A category of "sort of like the old boring women one and with still those old boring women in it, but made more exciting and edgy because it also had these special extra people you need to be really visionary and open minded to accept" is much more satisfying. Really makes them feel part of something big, something that changes the world.

🎯

Lacksie · 29/09/2026 12:45

FlirtsWithRhinos · 29/09/2026 09:55

Lacksie, like all Genderists, is ultimately demanding that we just accept it and do as we are told.

Has it ever occurred to you that it might be you telling trans people this?

BlueLegume · 29/09/2026 12:48

Lacksie · 29/09/2026 12:45

Has it ever occurred to you that it might be you telling trans people this?

So are you saying @Lacksie that trans people have more value and deserve more rights? Or am I missing the point?

Lacksie · 29/09/2026 12:51

BlueLegume · 29/09/2026 12:48

So are you saying @Lacksie that trans people have more value and deserve more rights? Or am I missing the point?

missing the point.

iwishitwouldstartraining · 29/09/2026 12:57

Lacksie · 29/09/2026 12:51

missing the point.

Now that you have returned to the thread, could you explain which services you think should be segregated according to gender identity, and how you would categorise gender identity?

My feeling is that if there is no reasonable argument for a service to be single sex, then it should just be mixed sex, but apparently you think further segregation would still be necessary?

I don't understand how this would work in practice so would be grateful if you could explain.

Thank you.

BendoftheBeginning · 29/09/2026 13:09

Lacksie · 29/09/2026 12:45

Has it ever occurred to you that it might be you telling trans people this?

Definitively not. “Trans people” have chosen to frame their pain and discomfort as resulting from being born in the wrong body. From there, they place the onus on society to rectify any problems they experience by pretending they are actually in the opposite sex body.

There are others ways to be “trans.” People could accept their bodies and be freely gender nonconforming. They could campaign for greater acceptance of gender bending presentation. They could expand what is acceptable for their birthsex to do/be/present.

Instead, a sizable proportion have dedicated themselves to forcing everyone else to declare the moon is the sun, right up to and including expecting them to live their lives at night in sympathy. This hasn’t been received at all well, so telling people they’re anti-moon bigots is all that’s left.

BlueLegume · 29/09/2026 13:14

Lacksie · 29/09/2026 12:51

missing the point.

Ok. So is this the point?

Women should accept men claiming to be women and get all the rights being a woman is entitled to based on how they feel?

Forget reality, science, biology and sex based rights just accept if a man says he is a woman then suck it up? Am I on the right lines?

BackToLurk · 29/09/2026 13:29

iwishitwouldstartraining · 29/09/2026 12:57

Now that you have returned to the thread, could you explain which services you think should be segregated according to gender identity, and how you would categorise gender identity?

My feeling is that if there is no reasonable argument for a service to be single sex, then it should just be mixed sex, but apparently you think further segregation would still be necessary?

I don't understand how this would work in practice so would be grateful if you could explain.

Thank you.

Looking forward to it @Lacksie

Pingponghavoc · 29/09/2026 13:30

If trans people were really just quietly getting on with their lives, living with the belief that their gender doesnt match their sex, women wouldn't care. We wouldn't have the need to tell these men anything.

But they are not doing that. They are politically and socially manipulating what it is to be female and a woman. And let's not forget, a girl or a boy.

They are trying to remove single sex spaces and replace them with spaces of women where they are free to enter to indulge their beliefs. They are forcing everyone to participate, thrn get stroppy when women speak.

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 29/09/2026 13:33

BendoftheBeginning · 29/09/2026 13:09

Definitively not. “Trans people” have chosen to frame their pain and discomfort as resulting from being born in the wrong body. From there, they place the onus on society to rectify any problems they experience by pretending they are actually in the opposite sex body.

There are others ways to be “trans.” People could accept their bodies and be freely gender nonconforming. They could campaign for greater acceptance of gender bending presentation. They could expand what is acceptable for their birthsex to do/be/present.

Instead, a sizable proportion have dedicated themselves to forcing everyone else to declare the moon is the sun, right up to and including expecting them to live their lives at night in sympathy. This hasn’t been received at all well, so telling people they’re anti-moon bigots is all that’s left.

Well, there's plenty of howling at the moon from TIMs. Maybe howling once a month in the lunar cycle will become their menstrual cycle?

OP posts:
Datun · 29/09/2026 13:45

Lacksie · 28/09/2026 18:19

The tribunal cleared DU of all wrongdoing. the tribunal did not find Dr Upton dishonest, malicious, threatening or discriminatory towards Peggie; it found DU's account of the key confrontation more reliable and found DU responded entirely appropriately.

Not a transactivist

TheKeatingFive · 29/09/2026 13:46

Lacksie · 29/09/2026 12:45

Has it ever occurred to you that it might be you telling trans people this?

Well I’m not going to pretend that humans can change sex, that sex should be defined as anything other than sex, or that women’s sex based rights should be dismantled.

If people have an issue with any of that, it’s not me they have a problem with, it’s Mother Nature. 🤷‍♀️

FlirtsWithRhinos · 29/09/2026 13:50

Lacksie · 29/09/2026 12:45

Has it ever occurred to you that it might be you telling trans people this?

Yes, it has "occurred" to me.

Has it occurred you that the chances of any perspective on this, Genderist-sexist, GC or indeed traditional-sexist not having occured to me by now are pretty much minimal?

I suggest you read my posting history. Worth going back a few years now as that was when I thought Genderists might be wanting genuine solutions and understanding, but it's all there.

I am a huge proponent for a solution that separates sex and gender entirely, so that whatever it is that trans people are feeling that is not body sex can be recognised in its own right.

It is this double-sided approach of "it's sex when it comes to your body, but not when it comes to mine" that is demeaning, reductive and insulting to female people. Not to mention that it is deeply sexist in its impact on our legal rights, our right to our own history, and our right to a social and cultural existence as the female half of humanity without being bundled into some sort of assumption about our personality, preferences of self image simply because that is what trans people and other Genderists believe they can assume about us.

So I'm sorry, because I'm sure that seemed like a neat little flip to you, but what trans people are demanding from women and why women are saying no to trans people are not simply two sides of the same fair coin.

Trans people and Genderists are asking of us that we cease to recogise the significance of our own bodies. All women are asking of trans people is simply that they stop claiming the thing that is not a body somehow nevertheless makes them interchangeable with the opposite ssex.

Lacksie · 29/09/2026 13:52

Datun · 29/09/2026 13:45

Not a transactivist

Accurately describing the findings of a court is trans activism?

Lacksie · 29/09/2026 13:54

TheKeatingFive · 29/09/2026 13:46

Well I’m not going to pretend that humans can change sex, that sex should be defined as anything other than sex, or that women’s sex based rights should be dismantled.

If people have an issue with any of that, it’s not me they have a problem with, it’s Mother Nature. 🤷‍♀️

You don't have to pretend anything.

Now consider offering the same courtesy to trans people and perhaps we can all get along :)

TheKeatingFive · 29/09/2026 13:57

Lacksie · 29/09/2026 13:54

You don't have to pretend anything.

Now consider offering the same courtesy to trans people and perhaps we can all get along :)

I will treat trans people with the same courtesy as I treat everyone else.

Like everyone else, I’m not going to pretend they are anything other than the sex they are. I’m not going to give biological men access to women’s spaces.

Then we can ALL get along.

Pingponghavoc · 29/09/2026 13:58

There seems to be a framing where there is two equal and long running beliefs and its only recently saggy women have decided to make it an issue.

But that isnt the case. Gender recognition, reassignment and identity are very recently inventions, so new that there isn't any agreed definition of what they are. The only consistent is that 'men say it's true, therefore we should agree'.

Gender recognition, reassignment and identity has only one use - to allow men to force everyone else interact with their belief.

Sex is defined, it does change, its important in safeguarding, health, population studies.

The two are only comparable in a mans head.

BlueLegume · 29/09/2026 13:58

Lacksie · 29/09/2026 13:54

You don't have to pretend anything.

Now consider offering the same courtesy to trans people and perhaps we can all get along :)

Yes you do have to pretend. you have to pretend when a man wants you to call him she/her and you have to pretend when a woman wants you to call her he/him.

If someone will lie about who they are and expect you to go along with it why would you trust anything else they say?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 29/09/2026 14:03

BlueLegume · 29/09/2026 13:58

Yes you do have to pretend. you have to pretend when a man wants you to call him she/her and you have to pretend when a woman wants you to call her he/him.

If someone will lie about who they are and expect you to go along with it why would you trust anything else they say?

It's like telling someone from a historically enslaved people that they don't have pretend they really think someone is their master, just as long as they call him master in a way that doesn't suggest to him or anyone else that they don't believe it.

Yes, that is inflamatory.

Yes, I stand by it. Female people are a historically oppressed people. Being required to use language that obscures and denies that oppression, that places the oppressors' reality above our own, is itself an act of opression.

Pingponghavoc · 29/09/2026 14:11

Let's agree to disagree/let's just get along are the only thing to say say when you know you are in the wrong, but cant admit it.

No one can justify why a man gets to be a woman on his say so and force women to play along.

Lacksie · 29/09/2026 14:12

FlirtsWithRhinos · 29/09/2026 14:03

It's like telling someone from a historically enslaved people that they don't have pretend they really think someone is their master, just as long as they call him master in a way that doesn't suggest to him or anyone else that they don't believe it.

Yes, that is inflamatory.

Yes, I stand by it. Female people are a historically oppressed people. Being required to use language that obscures and denies that oppression, that places the oppressors' reality above our own, is itself an act of opression.

It's like telling someone from a historically enslaved people that they don't have pretend they really think someone is their master, just as long as they call him master in a way that doesn't suggest to him or anyone else that they don't believe it

How you can think this is equivalent is insane to me. I just can't get my head around how you could have got there.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 29/09/2026 14:23

Lacksie · 29/09/2026 13:54

You don't have to pretend anything.

Now consider offering the same courtesy to trans people and perhaps we can all get along :)

Am I being a bigot when I refuse to pretend that my son has changed sex? Must I refer to him as she?

Because that is what I am constantly told by genderists. But I know what my son is physically, and I don't accept the ridiculous notion that he is my daughter because he thinks he is a woman, or because of how he has his hair done (yes, it's his own, not a wig!), or because he likes dresses, or because he's gentle, or any other spurious reason why genderists claim that he's not the man that he patently is.

My worldview has been declared heretical by a jumped up new sect with not a single convincing argument for a lot of its foundational dogmas.

iwishitwouldstartraining · 29/09/2026 14:28

Lacksie · 29/09/2026 14:12

It's like telling someone from a historically enslaved people that they don't have pretend they really think someone is their master, just as long as they call him master in a way that doesn't suggest to him or anyone else that they don't believe it

How you can think this is equivalent is insane to me. I just can't get my head around how you could have got there.

So any thoughts on the more practical question of how you would like services to be organised?

Generally it's unlawful to discriminate on the basis of sex unless specific criteria are met, but I think you want to change that.

Can you explain what you propose?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 29/09/2026 14:32

Lacksie · 29/09/2026 14:12

It's like telling someone from a historically enslaved people that they don't have pretend they really think someone is their master, just as long as they call him master in a way that doesn't suggest to him or anyone else that they don't believe it

How you can think this is equivalent is insane to me. I just can't get my head around how you could have got there.

i can't get my head round how you can't see it.

Lacksie · 29/09/2026 14:51

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 29/09/2026 14:23

Am I being a bigot when I refuse to pretend that my son has changed sex? Must I refer to him as she?

Because that is what I am constantly told by genderists. But I know what my son is physically, and I don't accept the ridiculous notion that he is my daughter because he thinks he is a woman, or because of how he has his hair done (yes, it's his own, not a wig!), or because he likes dresses, or because he's gentle, or any other spurious reason why genderists claim that he's not the man that he patently is.

My worldview has been declared heretical by a jumped up new sect with not a single convincing argument for a lot of its foundational dogmas.

How does your son feel about that question? - that seems to me to be to be the only person whose opinion you should care about on that.

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