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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some clarity in how the trans movement became so embedded, so preeminent

14 replies

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · Today 13:17

Despite being called a conspiracist here by a TRA, actually I work very hard to continually interrogate my thought processes, and not fall into easy generalisations etc.
So, I was reading Róisín Michaux and her fascinating conversation with someone high up in HIV funding, and the push in the last 20 years is to get everyone in the tent on retrovirals, meaning reaching out to not just gays and addicts, but sex workers (incl trans) and critically, the "third genders" who have migrated to the West in large numbers to end up as sex workers. And the decision was made to go for maximum anti stigmatization, which means zero messaging on personal behaviour, and critically deciding to accept these men as women. Don't blame them, get more onside.
Guess who has to move aside, and accept the messaging on health grounds that biological men can be women? Made even worse by the increase in HIV in European women who are the partners of men who use the services of these "third genders".
Then yesterday I read the amazing post from Hellofabore about how for 30 years plus, the sports authorities including IOC and FIFA decided to make total inclusion the policy, phasing out gender testing, primarily to allow the male DSDs from Africa mainly to be included, as they were IDd as female at birth, and the cruelty to deny they're still female is wrong.
Again, the overwhelming need is to not stigmatize these individuals. Of course a huge group (we know who) are stigmatized for objecting to losing sports opportunities.
And then back to Róisín Michaux again, her illuminating the revolution in psychiatric medicine, where men back in the day were diagnosed with transvestic disorder, a pure paraphylia, again to stop judging and be more inclusive, underwent massive de-stigmatisation and de-pathologisation, from paraphylia, to dysphoria, now to common all garden "sexual health category".
Three enormous areas where the drive to include men, to destigmatise their plight, to bring them in from the cold, couldn't happen in a vacuum. Society organised along sex-based lines couldn't be simply recategorised, no, a large population group (51% XX) was expected to move over, make their definition porous, extend the collective hand of kindness and inclusion, to this hardcore of men who were deemed most at risk, and needing most help.
At the same time, this blurring of definitions and imposed inclusivity spread from sport and medicine to law and education, the most motivated men worked hard to get the Gender Recognition Act on the statute book, and via Stonewall culture, "social training" and the "trans child" escalated as concepts and then real world consequences as noone in polite society other than a very brave few said anything.
So now we have developing nations male DSDs and "third genders", socially incorporated transvestites/transsexuals, and queer culture first world transgenders in the mix, a political culture in the West frozen into aquiescence and policy drift, and the only light of realism and sanity, an army of women fighting back, with amazing results re SC ruling, banishing self ID into the long grass, and medical and sports bodies tacking back to sanity.
But reading the almost scary analogousness of how health brought in trans and third genders at the expense of women, sport brought in male DSDs at the expense of women, psychiatry brought in transvestites from the cold at the expense of women, you can then see how the most motivated men got the Gender Recognition Act on the statute book to turbo charge the social trans/trans child revolution.
For me, I can now see the past as it travels into the future.

OP posts:
StandingDeskDisco · Today 16:52

imposed inclusivity spread from sport and medicine to law and education,

Interesting, if I understand you correctly, that sport and medicine (specifically public healthcare) were the first areas to embed trans ideology. I did not know this.

Don't forget the wider context and other major factors -

  1. After gay rights were won and done and dusted, Stonewall had to find a new purpose. They could have gone for fighting for gay rights abroad in those countries where it is illegal, but instead went for Trans right instead. They had a huge amount of influence and money, and wanted to keep the gravy train going
  2. More importantly, in the nineties the Left pivoted away from fighting class issues and economic equality, and went instead for social equality, making everything about 'identity'. The mantra to Be Kind comes from this prioritisation of individual feelings, and loss of a vision of collective class struggle.
MarcTheGenderSkeptic · Today 16:56

StandingDeskDisco · Today 16:52

imposed inclusivity spread from sport and medicine to law and education,

Interesting, if I understand you correctly, that sport and medicine (specifically public healthcare) were the first areas to embed trans ideology. I did not know this.

Don't forget the wider context and other major factors -

  1. After gay rights were won and done and dusted, Stonewall had to find a new purpose. They could have gone for fighting for gay rights abroad in those countries where it is illegal, but instead went for Trans right instead. They had a huge amount of influence and money, and wanted to keep the gravy train going
  2. More importantly, in the nineties the Left pivoted away from fighting class issues and economic equality, and went instead for social equality, making everything about 'identity'. The mantra to Be Kind comes from this prioritisation of individual feelings, and loss of a vision of collective class struggle.

Agree on all that, but I'm thinking the policy direction goes back decades.
Stonewall off the back of the GRA and gay marriage weaponised the messaging on "social trans" and "the trans child".

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · Today 17:59

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · Today 16:56

Agree on all that, but I'm thinking the policy direction goes back decades.
Stonewall off the back of the GRA and gay marriage weaponised the messaging on "social trans" and "the trans child".

There have been many threads about this, and in and ideal world FWR would have some indexing system that would allow you and others to read through them.

Yes it goes back years.

eg when queer politics got women's studies kicked of University's syllabuses and had them replaced with Gender Studies (and the poison from this back in the 1970/80s then fed into news papers and other media as the graduates of this queering got top jobs)

The The Yogyakarta Principles 2006

The GRA 2004

The EA that tinkered with Sex as a protected characteristic by allowing "legal women" to impinge on the rights of biological women.

And many more that I am sure others can fill you in on.

But basically what we are seeing now is the effective campaigning to undermine the sex is a biological reality that we all lived by has grown into this international campaign against women's sex based rights.

And in whose interest it was that sex was said not to be fixed.

Maybe something to do with the fact the women as a sex class are oppressed by men as a sex class. ie why Women's Liberation happened.

If men can say sex is not "real" then how can they be accused of discriminating against the sex class of women.

PeachyDaisy · Today 18:03

I think it has become the new civil rights movement now that gay marriage has been achieved. Do-gooders and social justice warriors always need some "righteous" cause to be fighting for.

BirdLandedonmyHead · Today 18:06

In some peoples heads there are two types of people

  1. Men. The important ones.
  2. Not- men. Thats women. Younger children. Those with DSDs that are brought up as women. Transwomen. Transmen. Non binary.

The ones in group 1 dont want to be mistaken for being in group 2. So they stamp down and tteat them with contempt.

simonr07 · Today 18:34

On a related note it seems impossible to find evidence based, science based information rather than the gender affirming information to share with our teens when they query their gender.

Transition, medicalisation and surgery are touted as easy answers by activist charity groups and online platforms...Please sign and share my petition if you agree that public funding should be directed toward neutral, evidence-based mental health and safeguarding services rather than local groups that push vulnerable, neurodivergent children down a path of medical transition.

https://c.org/nGgVt2NrsN

Sign the Petition

Protect vulnerable teens from online misinformation

https://www.change.org/p/protect-vulnerable-teens-from-online-misinformation?recruiter=485259082&recruited_by_id=12c386b0-cf2d-11e5-89aa-fdfe03367a6c&utm_source=share_petition&utm_campaign=share_petition&utm_term=starter_onboarding_share_personal&utm_medium=copylink&share_id=nGgVt2NrsN

Helleofabore · Today 18:46

Open Door: Transex Liberation Group, BBC Two, Monday 4 June 1973
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06c83f4

Clipped version:

https://x.com/jonnywsbell/status/2030798915423887413?s=46

The tweet says

1973: Transsexuals smugly declare: "we chose to be women, transsexualism is the tip of the iceberg, sex is fluid, and birth certs must change"..
2026: They played the long game and won, biology is erased, dissent is crushed and women's rights are gutted...mission accomplished...

This is a good reminder of how far back the move to change identification goes. It is not a recent move. It was a very long term strategy

Here is a link to ‘Genderwang’s’ Substack with the transcript.

https://genderwang.substack.com/p/how-long-has-trans-prompting-of-mps

How Long Has "Trans prompting" of MPs Been Going On?

Open Door: Transex Liberation Group, BBC Two, Monday 4 June 1973

https://genderwang.substack.com/p/how-long-has-trans-prompting-of-mps

Helleofabore · Today 18:48

This letter from Angela Douglas back in 1977 is something to remember.
(The tweet linking it also has an article from Germaine Greer which is also a very good reminder.)

https://x.com/hennieinglis/status/2031067162975117536?s=46

Dear Sister,

In regards to the Sandy Stone controversy: genetic women- Gennys-have never had to suffer the discrimination, self-hatred or fear that a transsexual must endure and survive in their lives. Genetic women are not ridiculed as severely, killed, tortured and arrested simply because they are
transsexual, as are transsexuals.

Genetic women have many rights, in comparison to transsexuals, who have
none.

Genetic women cannot possess the very special courage, brilliance, sensitivity and compassion-and overview-that derives from the transsexual experience. Free from the chains of menstruation and child- bearing. transsexual women are obviously far superior to Gennys in
many ways.

As some of you have discovered. because of the severity of the genocidal attitudes we must deal with all of our lives, many transsexuals have learned how to fight without giving any quarter or showing any mercy.

Genetic women are becoming quite obsolete, which is obvious, and the
future belongs to transsexual women. We know this, and perhaps some of you

suspect it. All you have left is your “ability" to bear children, and in a world which will groan to feed 6 billion by the year 2000, that's a negative asset.

Transsexual and veryproud,
Angela Douglas
Berkeley
Reprinted from Sister August-September, 1977

quixote9 · Today 18:52

IwantToRetire · Today 17:59

There have been many threads about this, and in and ideal world FWR would have some indexing system that would allow you and others to read through them.

Yes it goes back years.

eg when queer politics got women's studies kicked of University's syllabuses and had them replaced with Gender Studies (and the poison from this back in the 1970/80s then fed into news papers and other media as the graduates of this queering got top jobs)

The The Yogyakarta Principles 2006

The GRA 2004

The EA that tinkered with Sex as a protected characteristic by allowing "legal women" to impinge on the rights of biological women.

And many more that I am sure others can fill you in on.

But basically what we are seeing now is the effective campaigning to undermine the sex is a biological reality that we all lived by has grown into this international campaign against women's sex based rights.

And in whose interest it was that sex was said not to be fixed.

Maybe something to do with the fact the women as a sex class are oppressed by men as a sex class. ie why Women's Liberation happened.

If men can say sex is not "real" then how can they be accused of discriminating against the sex class of women.

This. Women's rights were getting awfully close to mainstreaming the understanding that women are human beings. Any day men might cease to be the important ones by being born that way.

Then the whole "men can be women" thing mushroomed out of nowhere. The only way to define the two groups then was using stereotypes. Poof, just like that, stereotypes were back. The patriarchy was safe if you just believed hard enough.

Not that anybody except pesky gender criticals articulated that. That would destroy the spell.

But people could feel in their bones that it meant the system was safe. No need to rethink everything. Men could go on being bestest and importantest.

(I get the feeling they're fighting in the last ditch. It's such obvious BS. But who knows. I never imagined that redefining women out of existence could be even a week long solution to feminism, but here we are, twenty years later.)

IwantToRetire · Today 18:54

quixote9 · Today 18:52

This. Women's rights were getting awfully close to mainstreaming the understanding that women are human beings. Any day men might cease to be the important ones by being born that way.

Then the whole "men can be women" thing mushroomed out of nowhere. The only way to define the two groups then was using stereotypes. Poof, just like that, stereotypes were back. The patriarchy was safe if you just believed hard enough.

Not that anybody except pesky gender criticals articulated that. That would destroy the spell.

But people could feel in their bones that it meant the system was safe. No need to rethink everything. Men could go on being bestest and importantest.

(I get the feeling they're fighting in the last ditch. It's such obvious BS. But who knows. I never imagined that redefining women out of existence could be even a week long solution to feminism, but here we are, twenty years later.)

In fact I was saying exactly the opposite.

Thanks to trans authoritarianism dating back getting on for 80 years is still in the ascendancy.

And as such is pushing feminism off the political agenda.

Angry
IwantToRetire · Today 18:57

Helleofabore · Today 18:48

This letter from Angela Douglas back in 1977 is something to remember.
(The tweet linking it also has an article from Germaine Greer which is also a very good reminder.)

https://x.com/hennieinglis/status/2031067162975117536?s=46

Dear Sister,

In regards to the Sandy Stone controversy: genetic women- Gennys-have never had to suffer the discrimination, self-hatred or fear that a transsexual must endure and survive in their lives. Genetic women are not ridiculed as severely, killed, tortured and arrested simply because they are
transsexual, as are transsexuals.

Genetic women have many rights, in comparison to transsexuals, who have
none.

Genetic women cannot possess the very special courage, brilliance, sensitivity and compassion-and overview-that derives from the transsexual experience. Free from the chains of menstruation and child- bearing. transsexual women are obviously far superior to Gennys in
many ways.

As some of you have discovered. because of the severity of the genocidal attitudes we must deal with all of our lives, many transsexuals have learned how to fight without giving any quarter or showing any mercy.

Genetic women are becoming quite obsolete, which is obvious, and the
future belongs to transsexual women. We know this, and perhaps some of you

suspect it. All you have left is your “ability" to bear children, and in a world which will groan to feed 6 billion by the year 2000, that's a negative asset.

Transsexual and veryproud,
Angela Douglas
Berkeley
Reprinted from Sister August-September, 1977

... because of the severity of the genocidal attitudes we must deal with all of our lives, many transsexuals have learned how to fight without giving any quarter or showing any mercy.

Genetic women are becoming quite obsolete, which is obvious, and the future belongs to transsexual women. We know this, and perhaps some of you suspect it. All you have left is your “ability" to bear children, and in a world which will groan to feed 6 billion by the year 2000, that's a negative asset.

Well that's an eye opener, and all too often we are saying TRAs and getting more extreme.

But this quotes shows it was always there!

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · Today 19:43

Great replies one and all. I'm aware of a fair amount of historical stuff even if I can't pinpoint dates.
But what might be less known by people is stuff like the HIV industry creating inclusion for third genders and trans sex workers, pushing women to accommodate, and making these new categories part of a sexual health classification rather than dysphoria etc.
When you then see how sports bodies bent over backwards to accomodate African male DSDs, you can see the policy drift to being anti racist, the religion of the left elites. Saving developing nations third genders, male DSDs, surely women would be ok making their boundaries porous to be accommodating and kind?
And then the de-stigmatising of transvestic disorder, again surely the greater good is achieved making these men feel better about themselves, what caring woman could object to sharing their identity?
Maybe this is why I'm reading more and more TRA attack lines that say transphobia and racism are intermeshed. It's an outdated model of what a female is for Western women, white Karens, to rigidly enforce boundaries that exclude the Semanyas and Khelifs and Priscas, those extreme gender non confirming third genders, those men who were bullied into old age who now can live and breathe as women and only want access to WI meets to discuss dressmaking and refuges to share their pain at being excluded women.
Yes, the non Western model of women is what the GCs are fighting like alleycats to tone police against, if we're to take the TRAs at face value, and the sooner these new women become part of the enlarged classification, the more we can all live in peace and harmony, transphobia <and> racism struck down.
So, aware of Stonewall policy drift after gay marriage legalised, and the insidious effects of the GRA, but seeing policies to incorporate the developing world into anti racism and anti transphobia, to me this is a giant piece of the puzzle that was not visible before reading about it.

OP posts:
maximc · Today 20:01

BirdLandedonmyHead · Today 18:06

In some peoples heads there are two types of people

  1. Men. The important ones.
  2. Not- men. Thats women. Younger children. Those with DSDs that are brought up as women. Transwomen. Transmen. Non binary.

The ones in group 1 dont want to be mistaken for being in group 2. So they stamp down and tteat them with contempt.

Women who argue for inclusion of gender non-conforming males in women's space often seem to classify humans as 1. Gender conforming men 2. Everyone else. They say, 'gender non-conforming males have to arrange their lives around the fear of male violence too.' But to me, male rage against the gender non-conforming male is not the same as the violence women face & is not addressed by opening women's spaces to these males.

TransParentlyAnnoyed · Today 20:16

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · Today 13:17

Despite being called a conspiracist here by a TRA, actually I work very hard to continually interrogate my thought processes, and not fall into easy generalisations etc.
So, I was reading Róisín Michaux and her fascinating conversation with someone high up in HIV funding, and the push in the last 20 years is to get everyone in the tent on retrovirals, meaning reaching out to not just gays and addicts, but sex workers (incl trans) and critically, the "third genders" who have migrated to the West in large numbers to end up as sex workers. And the decision was made to go for maximum anti stigmatization, which means zero messaging on personal behaviour, and critically deciding to accept these men as women. Don't blame them, get more onside.
Guess who has to move aside, and accept the messaging on health grounds that biological men can be women? Made even worse by the increase in HIV in European women who are the partners of men who use the services of these "third genders".
Then yesterday I read the amazing post from Hellofabore about how for 30 years plus, the sports authorities including IOC and FIFA decided to make total inclusion the policy, phasing out gender testing, primarily to allow the male DSDs from Africa mainly to be included, as they were IDd as female at birth, and the cruelty to deny they're still female is wrong.
Again, the overwhelming need is to not stigmatize these individuals. Of course a huge group (we know who) are stigmatized for objecting to losing sports opportunities.
And then back to Róisín Michaux again, her illuminating the revolution in psychiatric medicine, where men back in the day were diagnosed with transvestic disorder, a pure paraphylia, again to stop judging and be more inclusive, underwent massive de-stigmatisation and de-pathologisation, from paraphylia, to dysphoria, now to common all garden "sexual health category".
Three enormous areas where the drive to include men, to destigmatise their plight, to bring them in from the cold, couldn't happen in a vacuum. Society organised along sex-based lines couldn't be simply recategorised, no, a large population group (51% XX) was expected to move over, make their definition porous, extend the collective hand of kindness and inclusion, to this hardcore of men who were deemed most at risk, and needing most help.
At the same time, this blurring of definitions and imposed inclusivity spread from sport and medicine to law and education, the most motivated men worked hard to get the Gender Recognition Act on the statute book, and via Stonewall culture, "social training" and the "trans child" escalated as concepts and then real world consequences as noone in polite society other than a very brave few said anything.
So now we have developing nations male DSDs and "third genders", socially incorporated transvestites/transsexuals, and queer culture first world transgenders in the mix, a political culture in the West frozen into aquiescence and policy drift, and the only light of realism and sanity, an army of women fighting back, with amazing results re SC ruling, banishing self ID into the long grass, and medical and sports bodies tacking back to sanity.
But reading the almost scary analogousness of how health brought in trans and third genders at the expense of women, sport brought in male DSDs at the expense of women, psychiatry brought in transvestites from the cold at the expense of women, you can then see how the most motivated men got the Gender Recognition Act on the statute book to turbo charge the social trans/trans child revolution.
For me, I can now see the past as it travels into the future.

Nope. Trans individuals have always existed, continue to exist, and always will. More come out now than did, because society (despite best efforts) is more tolerant and open. The young are teaching the old in this regard.

Creating weird origin stories and conspiracy theories about why minorities exist, and are more visible now, is very much a choice. Being trans is not.

When I was a child, it was rare for parents to be divorced, as mine were. Or for my aunt to have a girlfriend. Special needs kids like my brother were often still hidden away in institutions, or undiagnosed.

I've heard these ridiculous 'the different are among us, where did they come from, did you know they're plotting against us, they're driven by sex and inherently violent' nonsense theories my whole life. And it's always the same explanation: narrow-minded bigotry.

Why didn't autistic people exist before? They did. It's just we got better at diagnosing them. Ditto dyslexia, ADHD, asthma, ADD...and more of those kids survive now.

Where did all the gay people come from? They were always there.

Why are some people trans? Dude, work it out, they just are.

I know. Conspiracies are far more fun than 'trans people just exist'. You can set yourself pretend homework, and look for patterns. They're after our women!

Bless.

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