Reflections on trans presence at a Dykes Who Hike event

[13RidgmontRoad]

For those who don't know DWH, it's an informal mainly Instagram-promoted event and the organisers, two women in their 20s, arrange (relatively accessible) hikes in locations mainly in SE England. Cost to join is £2 a ticket. Yesterday was the first one I've been on, which was 17 miles (Newhaven to Brighton). Around 130 people attended.

There were 5-6 TW on the hike that I could see; two older chaps, one in a dress and heavy makeup, the other looking very much just like a bloke in men's clothing. Four younger ones who looked like the wind might blow them away.

Older blokey one was very annoying - lots of mansplaining on the Whatsapp group, selfies and borderline inappropriate jokes, generally ignored.

Two of the younger ones peeled off about halfway through as they couldn't cope with the rest of the distance. Remaining younger ones were a couple and kept themselves to themselves. They were rather timid and socially awkward, which was a bit of a contrast to 130 hale and hearty lesbians in hiking boots.

I felt like most of the women there just gave the lot of them a wide berth - bit of polite chat then forward or back to join other women.

The (lovely) organisers are quite young and there's absolutely no way either of them would come out and bar TW. I imagine they'd be terrified to take a view. So it seemed very much like weary acceptance. It was rather interesting to observe.

That's because only a minority of lesbians want them and that's not enough people to keep a bar in business. If trans women were such a big deal for lesbians, they'd be at such a bar in hoardes. Instead they share information about places that are even rumoured to be intolerant of trans people and avoid those venues. They vote with their feet

No, what I saw was women who didn’t know one another before introducing themselves, and then making friends and getting along jovially.

We were together for around eight hours, which is a good while to observe ime.

Re “how did I know there weren’t other TM/Ws, they didn’t have a badge on” - all the usual answers you’ll know and love. Most people don’t pass, in either direction, but passing isn’t really the point here. I won’t think a TW is a woman even if she passes. I’m a butch lesbian who inadvertently “passes” a few times a week - I’m still not a bloke.

And a bloke who turns up in men’s clothing and tries to get everyone’s attention in a slightly risqué way isn’t living his best dyke life, imo.

I havent made any point about single sex environments. The point I have made is that the GC OP seems odd for turning up to a clearly labelled trans inclusive event and then spying on the members to speculate on how they interact with each other.

How do you know the gender identity of other people who you think are butch lesbians?

Are you in America? Which 'women only' venues do you know of in the U.K?

Men don't really like women at their venues, but women are expected to love having men in theirs?

The only butch lesbian I referred to in my post was me.

Most people can distinguish men from women in the majority of cases at a glance. It’s a remarkably ordinary thing that people, even young children, can do. And as I said above, passing is neither here nor there.

'Gender identity' is irrelevent to one's sex.

What's a wlw girlie?

There are lesbian bars in London. Idk what to tell you. If you mean ones that exclude trans people, then probably not because most lesbians in London believe TWAW and welcome them in their spaces. They dont attend places or events that exclude trans women as women.

If it was labelled a Duyke Hike' then it is not clearly a mixed sex group, is it? Was the potential presence of males included in the small print?

The OP.said she knows there werent any trans men present. Please do not interrupt conversations if you do not have the gist of them. It is disruptive.

No, it's included in large print as the description of the grouo stating who it is for on the Instagram page the OP mentioned in the initial post.

I think you're not following which is understandable. You said there werent any trans men present, right? Do you remember saying that?

Well I am asking you how you distinguished people you saw as butch lesbians from someone who actually identifies as a trans man? Did you ask all attendees for their gender identity and/or preferred pronouns?

Yes it was because it clearly stated as much in the group description on the instagram she mentioned.

My point is that younger women have grown used to not having true female only venues and spaces as the whole scene has been 'queered'......they know no different. 'Peope who assume trans identities remain male or female. Nobody can change sex. Women who want truly single sex venues and groups now have to do so clandestinely lest the stazi get wind of it.

I'll disrupt if I choose. It is a an open forum - which is why you are also here - posting against the flow of what most people want, and the overall purpose of the sub forum.

@13RidgmontRoad

Again, thank you for the respectful, sensitive and interesting post. It's so important to remember there are real people behind the hair splitting and head of a pin dancing, getting on the best they can.

That one dominating man (in sex based language) aside, the group sounds lovely. I just wish they felt able to create the atmosphere they want without adopting such sexist labels for each other, and by implication, everyone else. 😥

They don't want to know different. They probably see it like segregation. Most white people do not want to experience apartheid like conditions just to see if they'd prefer it.

What is the purpose of this forum?

As i say they've been inculcated.....but speak to any young female detransitioner she'll tell the familair story of how alternative persepctives are simply not tolerated in the 'queer' community. There is a strong incentive to adhere to the assigned political ideology and talking points lest one be excluded.

Single sex spaces are nothing like apartheid. Apartheid is a sytem in which black people did not have equal civil rights to white people and there was harsh and punitive social restrictions on their actions and whereabouts.

Single sex spaces exist to honour and protect the dignity of female people in situations of vulnerability around their sexed body. This is not a harsh punishment or segregation in the manner of apartheid ( such a lame argument by people who know nothing about the operation of apartheid). Single sex spaces exist when female people are valued, honoured and provided with protections, or provisions, for their dignity and safety. Or to provide female sport with equitable conditions and fair play.

Honestly, the argument is lost when you bring in apartheid. It is such a weak analogy.

Eh? That was to explain to you what heterosexual means... ie your dating pool is exclusively male. Not that it includes all males.
Responding "IF I was bisexual..." is spectacularly missing the point.

Can you at least see that lesbians, being women, are pressured to include transwomen in their dating pool, while gay men are not? The cotton ceiling? Did that all pass you by?

For years it has served as a gathering place for women ( and some men too) who want/ed to meeet to discuss the negative impact of trans ideology on women and children, and on same sex attracted people too. This was at a time when discussion was literally forbidden elsewhere. The Labour party was still chanting 'TWAW' and 'No Debate' and there was no coverage in any mainstream media, or debate in parliament. It is often targeted by trans activist who have sought to disrupt or to report women for posting truthfully.

In fact this sub forum was hived off even further at the request of 'intersectionalist' feminists who didn't want to meet and discuss in this way. So 'Feminist chat' was created for people to discuss other types of women's issue. This sub forum has been an incredibly valuable meeting place for people of like mind who reject the totalitarianism of gender ideology. a place to share; discuss; follow court cases; share resources.

There are pretty huge potential detrimental consequences to lesbians who disagree, aren't there? Such as being compared to apartheid apologists by yourself, which if it was an actual real life interaction would be pretty devastating.

Ahem. Once again, the only butch lesbian I saw was in the mirror.

And once again with feeling - it’s not about passing so well that you get a certificate from the Council of Lesbians. If that older bloke who attended identified as a lesbian then I’m John F Kennedy.

The behaviour of most of the women in that space demonstrated that TW were at best tolerated at arms’ length, and I thought that was interesting.