My work insisting I refer to a 9 year old as they/them

[TheMadGardener]

I work in a British primary school. Just started new term. Long standing pupil, a girl, is starting Year 5 now so she is 9 years old. No issues until now although parents are quite "alternative/new age."

Headteacher has informed staff that according to the child and her parents this girl has decided to be non-binary. Staff are now to refer to her as they/them and she is now using a gender-neutral shortened version of her name (think Alex instead of Alexandra or Jo instead of Joanna).

I am extremely uncomfortable with this and will definitely not be using they/them - I will be referring to the child by her chosen abbreviation to avoid using pronouns (at least it's a shortening of her real name rather than a made-up name).

Serious question: I thought new legislation discouraged schools from getting on board with this sort of thing? Or is it only they can't let children do it without parents knowing?

I'm finding it very hard to keep my mouth shut on my actual opinions in the presence of headteacher. (Colleagues I've spoken to on the quiet all think it is bullshit too)

@soupycustard that’s fair. To be honest, I’ve seen males when faced with trans men and women be much more hostile than women are.

Hermaphroditism belongs in the same bin a senility and hysteria as far as diagnoses go.

Fair enough!

I don’t know how to measure for curtains, put a duvet cover on or sew a button on.

On these ones, sort yourself out. These are things no adult should be relying on another person for. (Which reminds me, I should make sure the teens can still sew buttons! Pretty sure they both did at some point in primary school.)

I'm with you on the nil interest in makeup and mostly trousers wearing. I think that ending up where we are is what's being taken away from this generation. It would not have occurred to anyone to ask this little girl whether she was a boy when I was growing up. Wishing that I was a boy was in the same category as wishing I could become invisible or wishing I could fly. A fun thought experiment and maybe sometimes a game, but not reality.

everyone seems so ultra feminine now: eyelashes, long hair, dresses and skirts, all these makeup tutorials and contour… and trad wives and influencers telling you how to do housework etc. I think I’d really struggle if I was a schoolgirl now.

"They" in that context is they in the plural, or they as in "There's someone at the door whose sex I can't tell from here".

"They" when there's only one person whose sex you are perfectly aware of is ridiculous.

Why are you putting basic skills that everyone, male or female, should be capable of, in the same category as makeup and clothing choices?

Everyone, male or female, should be able to do basic things like housework (unless you're very wealthy and can hire servants to do everything round the house like cooking, cleaning, laundry and making your bed). I suppose you could live in a rancid, filthy house and live on takeaways, but that shouldn't be something to aspire to.

Are you really boasting that you can't put a duvet cover on? Do you never wash your bedding or do you have servants? Or does your mum do it for you?

It's pretty sexist to assume that housework is something that only girls and women should be able to do.

Yes. And they’re all male. Go figure.

Again

Where is Sally?

Not sure, think they're over there
They're in the kitchen

Its not difficult.
But if you cant cope with that,
Sally's over there

The more you push against it with a child, the more they will stick their feet in the ground and stubbornly hold their stance.

Please.
This just isn't correct. It's tying yourself in linguistic knots. You have to think about which pronoun to use and then use one that doesn't make sense. It's hard cognitive work.

"Where are the children?"

"James and Jane were watching TV, but Sally wasn't there. I think they went for a walk"

"Sorry who went for a walk?

"They went for a walk"

"All of them?"

*No I don't think James and Jane did"

"So who was she with?"

We only use 'they' singular in normal language when the subject is non-specific.

Obviously people do use 'they' to refer to a specific person, but it is confusing.

The more you push against it with a child

You don't have to make a big thing about it, but avoiding correct pronouns teaches children that a pronoun is a judgement on their identity when it's a no more a judgement than saying 'In the UK children in Year 5 are 9-10 years old'.

Ha! Acerbic as ever mumsnet!

I can put a duvet cover on but it’s always annoying and never looks nice.

Same for clothes (well other than my jeans and horsey clothes) and make up. Always a kerfuffle and never seems worth it.

I guess what I’m trying to say is it doesn’t seem natural or normal for me. Motherhood did but as main wage earner I couldn’t really do as I would have liked.

These issues with what I think is gender performative behaviour hasn’t led me to think I’m not female. So I was trying to say trans people must feel it really strongly to want to change gender. That’s all.

I probably am very sexist - but not about women! Femininity is a foreign country to me most of the time though! I’ve probably been too honest as usual!

People sometimes have linguistic 'peculiarities', like saying 'whom' when it should be 'who' because they think it sounds posh, or saying 'bathroom' when there's no bath in it.

So if you want to say 'they' when referring to a known person, carry on. It will be a linguistic peculiarity of yours. Just don't expect anyone else to do the same.

it certainly shouldn't be expected of a teacher, because teachers after all are supposed to be teaching children things like grammar.

As for just giving in to what a 9 year old wants because they 'will stick their feet in the ground and stubbornly hold their stance' - do you apply that to everything a 9 year old wants, or just claiming to be NB?
Isn't it a dangerous route to go down to say that you're only 9, but if you're stubborn enough you can get away with anything, even convincing your school that biology and grammar are secondary to what you want?

edited for er...... grammar😬

My daughter works with a non-binary person and it's very confusing when she talks about this person as they. It's often not obvious whether she is referring to the one person or multiple people.

By the way, the person has a typically female name, long hair and dresses female, but apparently gets very offended and makes complaints if anyone calls her she 🤷‍♀️

Just as a matter of interest because I don’t aim to derail conversations, they as a singular pronoun dates back to old English and into middle and Shakespearean. But that isn’t that relevant given that we use and adapt language constantly.

There are some very isolated instances in Shakespeare and Jane Austen of 'they' in things like 'anyone who leaves their sword will regret it' or stuff like that - not things like - “Emma Woodhouse, handsome, clever, and rich, with a comfortable home and happy disposition, seemed to unite some of the best blessings of existence; and had lived nearly twenty-one years in the world with very little to distress or vex them” or "Alas, poor Yorick! I knew them, Horatio' - because these writers weren't thick and they wanted their words to be clear and comprehensible

In my darker moments I can’t help thinking that people do things nowadays because they can. I mean I’m a life time Ms because Mrs and Miss is too much information and I’d happily apply for jobs without revealing gender but … ??? I know of a couple of feminine looking people with NB nicknames and “they” pronouns and I really don’t know why. I am sounding like a confused old woman.

@TheMadGardener OP, unfortunately you may also now have the new NSPCC schools guidance to deal with/decipher:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5578237-latest-nspcc-schools-guidance

@SevenYellowHammers 100% off topic but learn how to do the "burrito method" with quilt covers. Works a treat for single-handedly changing even a super-king-size quilt. (What the videos miss out is that the burrito works best with covers with a wide opening, if the opening is narrow then pushing the burrito through is a struggle.)

Unrolling the burrito is immensely satisfying.

Anyway I still want to know - what did the head teacher say about children who use she/her instead of they/them about this child?

Thank you!! IKEA stuff so should work!

True true! Shakespeare liked a bit of gender bending though didn’t he? In fact the Elizabethan/Jacobean theatre industry did😀

Well he used male actors for female roles (because he had to) and obviously there was often an element of comedy there above the level of the script, because the audience had the extra joke that someone patently male was dressed as a female, yeah.

Because it was illegal for women to be on the stage in Shakespeare’s time.

Which strikes me as the kind of regressive, gender norms that we should keep fighting against, no?

I don't get it either. Everyone can see this person is a woman. Of course she can choose to look however she likes and call herself whatever she likes. But I don't think she should have the right to demand that everyone else refers to her as "they" and then complain about them if they don't.