Lactation support conference in Ireland - the quiet part out loud

[ArabellaScott]

https://genspect.org/where-does-male-lactation-fit-in-breastfeeding-support-networks/

'This year’s program lists a lactation consultant called Jacob Engelsman speaking on “communicating inclusively: creating gender-affirming clinical spaces for families” and “lactation support for gender-diverse families”.'

'Jacob Engelsman is a Certified Lactation Consultant based in the US. He describes himself as an infant care specialist, speaker, and writer. He is the author of a recently published book, Lactation for the Rest of Us: A Guide for Queer and Trans Parents and Helpers, and specialises in inducing lactation in non-gestational parents (parents who haven’t given birth). “Lactation is for anyone” Jacob tells us in this podcast interview.
Engelsman’s interest and expertise is not limited to lactation for the purpose of feeding an infant. One of his previous presentations was “Inducing Lactation for Kinksters” and according to his CV he has been giving various talks including on lactation at Frolicon, an adult lifestyle and fetish convention held annually in Atlanta, Georgia with substantial programming around kink, BDSM, sexuality, polyamory, LGBTQ+ relationships and alternative sexual/family cultures.
He is not a nurse, midwife, doctor, or healthcare professional (nor does he claim to be). He is not a parent or someone with personal experience of breastfeeding. He got his certification five years ago and prior to that worked in the food service industry.'
...
'Why would a man want to lactate? In Engelsman’s own words:
“There are several reasons a person may choose to lactate regardless of whether they can gestate a child…a non-gestational parent might choose to induce lactation as a way to feel emotionally closer to the baby, assert their own feelings of parenthood, gender euphoria, or just for the unique experience of it.” (p.49)
Writing specifically about “cis” men, that is men who identify as men, he says:
“As to the question of why they would want to, it seems reasonable to believe that cis men want to lactate for the same reasons as anyone else. Which is to say, usually to feed and bond with their baby and to a lesser extent for curiosity, fun, or sexual gratification.” (p.152)'

And this is where it leads... you can't even question things without getting in trouble with the law as has happened in Iceland.

abcnews4.com/news/nation-world/icelandic-gay-activist-says-police-investigating-him-for-questioning-trans-breastfeeding-transgender-male-female-gender-identity-lgbt-eldur-smari-kristinsson

Something tells me that if men could breastfeed they would do it as ostentatiously as they could, make sure everyone around knows what they're doing. And would respond with outrage if anyone commented in the slightest.

Something tells me that if men could breastfeed they would do it as ostentatiously as they could, make sure everyone around knows what they're doing. And would respond with outrage if anyone commented in the slightest.

They are riding the coattails of consenting adults who like having their bums paddled by other consenting adults, and have been enabled to do so by many of those consenting adults.

The fetish community has been far too willing to say "your kink is not my kink but your kink is OK" and not nearly willing enough to say "actually, your kink isn't OK". Coupled with other safeguarding issues (looking at Fetlife in particular, who are well-known for refusing to act to block the accounts of those credibly accused of consent violations), and it's clear that the fetish community is unsafe for women and their children.

Cant help but wonder where all the TRAs are on this thread. They seem so keen to plop onto threads but not this one. I wonder why.

I'm surprised that none of the experts speaking against this have yet used the term "paedophilia" because that's what this is.

Yes. Seems to be a general don't ask dont tell.

Entirely in keeping with No Debate.

There was a Ben Elton sketch back in the ooh 80s I think, where he said this about periods. If men got them it would be normal to brag about flow in public!!

"Funny" how its completely different for women...

Ah sorry @Cailin66 , it was discussed on another FWR thread I read recently, so recently I'd assumed it was still in the top pages. I'll find it and post.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5559583-so-this-looks-like-scot-gov-has-gone-tits-up-again

It's the paedophile script isn't it? Make people doubt themselves in a subtle and emotionally manipulative way.

Yes. And I think many approach it as a kind of general project. Undermining and gaslighting women.

Indeed , why are the people attending and running this "lactation" conference not seeing the huge red flag with warning klaxon attached about a man who is involved with working with babies but who is also involved with any promotion of lactation for "fun"/ sexual reasons? It would be the equivalent of a paediatric doctor or nurse attending an adult baby or a furry convention.

I suspect that the kink has three aspects:

1. Induction of galactorrhoea, the idea as well as actually doing it. Fits with that thing I don’t know whether we are allowed to say.

2. A sexual partner enjoying the man’s secretions. Would a woman be into that? Would a gay man be into that? The fact that I cannot conceive it being an attraction doesn’t mean it isn’t for someone else.

Neither of these is paedophilic. But neither justifies engagement from the medical establishment or breastfeeding supporters, nor intrusion into breastfeeding support sessions.

3. Involving a baby in this.

Absolutely this is child abuse, and potentially domestic abuse, too.

his book is called ‘Lactation for the rest of us’ ?

fucks sake

Thanks for the link, I now realise why Engelsman said that women do not breastfeed exclusively, that any of us who say so are lying. It’s really annoyed me that.

Men cannot breastfeed. Some of the transexuals that take enough of a cocktail of drugs can eventually secrete something, but it’s not breast milk. And it most certainly wouldn’t be more than a couple of spoonfuls. So the only reason to do it is for that man’s sexual fetish. Because it’s not milk and it’s not enough, the baby obviously has to be fed instead by formula. If you say women who breastfeed also use formula, that means the transexuals are just as much a woman as a real woman.

I feel so stupid that I didn’t realise why Jacob lied, should always look to see what the lie is to achieve.

Yep, it's building on a lie so women doubt themselves. And then all these daft "be kind" people go along with it, even though the rest of us can see it's paedophilia in plain sight and the end result is these people get funding from governments and invited to lactation conferences. PIE never went away, they've just been carefully planning and manipulating and it seems to be working. It's women like us and other women and men who see it for what it is and are horrified that have to hold the line. Governments and organisations have been groomed so effectively they cannot see the wood for the trees now. Sadly. And children and babies suffer. It's appalling.

There’s no such thing as extended breastfeeding, there is early weaning (as practiced by most western cultures) or natural term breastfeeding. Globally, the average age children self-wean is around 4 years, biologically children don’t have a fully developed immune system until around 5 years, so until that time even one or two breastfeeds a day provides immune support for the child, because the longer the duration of lactation, the more concentrated the milk is. Natural term breastfeeding is only viewed as weird because it’s not culturally normal in western society, but it’s actually biologically and anthropologically normal.

As long as it’s women, it’s not biologically or anthropologically normal for men to breastfeed ever.

I did the 'weird' thing. I breastfed exclusively and for ages because it was easy and I was at home with them and I'm also really disorganised so never got around to stopping! I nursed my children until they were 4 and in the case of the oldest 5 and did tandem feeding and all the rest. This was not done out of any kind of plan or wanting to do something exceptional. It was not well thought out or some kind of parenting philosophy. I did it because it was easy for me and helped everyone to sleep and chill out and was mostly lovely.

I will admit to a bit of weirdness at the end... five was a bit much! It was only a little bit of milk sometimes and none of this was in public when they were past the baby stage. But still there were conversations with the oldest happening like, 'you're too old now, this feels a bit strange now, we're going to have to stop this!'

It makes sense that the natural term is around 4. Like so many things to help children's early development it is just about not getting in the way of what happens for many in a very straightforward way.

Why are the ALCI getting in the way of this by allowing a picture of horror? It is a horrible pollution of something beautiful.

i likewise find it upsetting - knowing how many women struggle to establish BF and get the right help to overcome challenges - that any research money and thought is actually going into trying to get TW to lactate. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10926588/ - in this case study the TW never produced more than 7 ml /day and seeing as a baby rapidly increases their needs of up to 360ml a day in the first week (and up to 1000ml/day in the months before before weaning occurs), they are very much trying to show that it's comparable to a woman needing to do combi feeding. Both my babies were unwell after birth and because they couldn't feed well and I couldn't produce enough even with pumping, I was advised very quickly by staff that I had to move to bottle feeding for their own good, even though I continued with pumping for 3 months at a cost to my own mental health.

Just to add, if it’s the case that Ireland has some of the lowest BF rates amongst similar developed countries, I would ask an open question to all the female lactation counsellors who had booked to go on that conference - why would important CPD time be devoted to 2 whole sessions targeting such a small minority of clients, considering the low rates of BF amongst the general female population in Ireland?

a baby rapidly increases their needs of up to 360ml a day in the first week (and up to 1000ml/day in the months before before weaning occurs)

Wow! Aren't women amazing!

I have breastfed for various periods from less than 6m to up to 3y. I have mix-fed and exclusively breastfed. I have re-lactated. I have been a trained breastfeeding supporter. Yet the wonderful things we can do with our female bodies never cease to amaze and delight me.

I hope no woman is upset by my previous post. It's not in any way a judgement. I found breastfeeding incredibly difficult to establish with each of my babies, and I appreciate that I was able to breastfeed due to the support I had, my life circumstances, and the fact that my babies were born large and healthy.

That’s absolutely infuriating. How dare he?

The laughter and the patronising suggestion that if women stopped ‘lying’ to each other about our breastfeeding experiences, we’d all be better off. No Jacob, breastfeeding mothers would all be better off if people like you stayed the fuck away from breastfeeding mothers and babies.

Getting men to lactate for sexual or ‘curiosity’ reasons in the privacy of their own spaces is their own business- I think it’s fucking disgusting but there’s nothing I can do about what people get up to in their bedrooms with other perverts consenting adults. But ‘lactating’ men need to be nowhere near babies, children and mothers, and they certainly don’t need or deserve support from the professionals whose job is to support women breastfeeding babies.

I don't have strong opinions about the right time to stop breastfeeding, so apologies if I have used language that has upset anyone, but your argument is still that breastfeeding is done to benefit the child and that the breastmilk has a quantifiable benefit.